Camp RWD

[Team RWD/Jarkko]

Here is few photos from our new EXT1 project

http://www.teamrwd.com/jarkko/camp8.jpg
http://www.teamrwd.com/jarkko/camp7.jpg http://www.teamrwd.com/jarkko/camp.jpg http://www.teamrwd.com/jarkko/camp1.jpg
http://www.teamrwd.com/jarkko/camp4.jpg http://www.teamrwd.com/jarkko/camp2.jpg http://www.teamrwd.com/jarkko/camp3.jpg http://www.teamrwd.com/jarkko/camp5.jpg

[ 12-20-2004, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: Team RWD/Jarkko ]

[Antti P]

Paint that Saab to look like a police car :D

Anyway... You could add some more steel in it ;)

[ROB DA MOB...WCA]

Finlands are loud! :cool:

[ 12-19-2004, 05:15 AM: Message edited by: Terry Jackson ]

[bignoiz]

Damn that car looks solid :eek:

[boommerextreme]

Why build a 1 woofer car NO one wants to see that!!! J/K :D tongue.gif Looks good!!!

[Kim]

NICE!

Give us some more pics! ;)

[Uzzio]

cool smile.gif
let us see more pics smile.gif

[ 12-19-2004, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: Uzzio ]

[Jason Ebels]

red x's

[regal1975]

more pics!!!

ridiculous!! i love it

[dbWarrior]

Jarkko: There is only red X's. Maybe you should chabge you host or something.

[boommerextreme]

Im getting good pics no red Xs here.

[cp]

Originally posted by dbWarrior:
Jarkko: There is only red X's. Maybe you should chabge you host or something. me to :confused:

[Team RWD/Jarkko]

hmmm. Now i'm seeing also red x... i'll try to find better place to host these pics...

[dbWarrior]

Now it's work smile.gif

How many meters of steel is gone ? Over 200m ?

[Team RWD/Jarkko]

Originally posted by dbWarrior:
Now it's work smile.gif

How many meters of steel is gone ? Over 200m ? Over... a bit over 200m for now and have buy a little more

[vahonen]

And now I see red x's.. was working before. Good job guys smile.gif

[XTREM FORCE]

Great pictures!!!!!!!!!!! :D

[Kim]

Give us more pics! :D

[Team RWD/Jarkko]

changed host... now it should work

[Team RWD/Jarkko]

Originally posted by Antti P:
Paint that Saab to look like a police car :D

Anyway... You could add some more steel in it ;) That kind of paint job was our plan...

[Team RWD/Jarkko]

Originally posted by Kim:
Give us more pics! :D soon as we get some...

[HEAVY METAL]

I am impressed by the welding and craftsmanship....and that doesn't happen very often! ;)
Looks good. :D

[170typhoon]

More pics!!!!

[Been Jamin]

Dang, that is awesome!

[Kim]

Originally posted by Team RWD/Jarkko:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kim:
Give us more pics! :D soon as we get some... </font>[/QUOTE]Jarkko you guys have been working on that car during 2004 so come on give us some pics tongue.gif

I remember the signature you had before "someting is coming up" :rolleyes:

Now that we have sold our EX Fiestan we need someting from Finland to look at :D

[I'm Liven Loud]

More pics ;)

[stany]

Sweet welding !!
What a construction !
More pics please smile.gif

[170typhoon]

Yes we need more pics!

[TRENDSETTER]

Originally posted by HEAVY METAL:
I am impressed by the welding and craftsmanship....and that doesn't happen very often! ;)
Looks good. :D I would have to back my team Master welder on this one!!! :D

[HEAVY METAL]

Originally posted by TRENDSETTER:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by HEAVY METAL:
I am impressed by the welding and craftsmanship....and that doesn't happen very often! ;)
Looks good. :D I would have to back my team Master welder on this one!!! :D </font>[/QUOTE]...if I can still remember HOW to weld.
haven't done it in a while! ;)
(Danny....call me!)

[LUNDY]

Man there's ALOT of wire ran in that car !!!!! Welding wire that is!
The only thing that bugs me is that it looks like the piece of sq. stock used to replace the rear axle looks as if it is two pieces welded together.
It may just be the pic but if not, even with the braces that are in place that could and would still be a problem later on.
There is nothing worse then breaking in the lanes. That is why I am glad to be a graduate of the BRSOOEC "Bobby Riley School Of Over Engineering Class"
Not pickin it apart fellas' just wanted to give you an outsider view.
The work so far looks AWESOME!
keep us updated!
LUNDY

[LUNDY]

I just noticed that the rear is still going to have some travel. What is going to take the place of the jacks? Air bags maybe?

LUNDY

[Team RWD/Jarkko]

Originally posted by LUNDY:
Man there's ALOT of wire ran in that car !!!!! Welding wire that is!
The only thing that bugs me is that it looks like the piece of sq. stock used to replace the rear axle looks as if it is two pieces welded together.
It may just be the pic but if not, even with the braces that are in place that could and would still be a problem later on.
There is nothing worse then breaking in the lanes. That is why I am glad to be a graduate of the BRSOOEC "Bobby Riley School Of Over Engineering Class"
Not pickin it apart fellas' just wanted to give you an outsider view.
The work so far looks AWESOME!
keep us updated!
LUNDY yes we were forced to modify that rear axle, because we made it originaly too wide so that's why it looks like it has been made of two parts... but there is another, smaler tube inside of it... and we are going to still reinforce the whole rear axle later, though it hardly would fail now.

[Team RWD/Jarkko]

Originally posted by LUNDY:
I just noticed that the rear is still going to have some travel. What is going to take the place of the jacks? Air bags maybe?

LUNDY We had an idea of leaving those jacks there, but using a larger jack's pump (or another hydralic pump) to control all jacks at the same time. There is going to be 4 of those jacks all together (front 2, rear 2)

Yes, that rear isn't ready yet.

[Team RWD/Jarkko]

Here are some more pics

From our batteries
http://www.teamrwd.com/jarkko/DSC02927.JPG

our side windows (40mm =&gt; 1,6 inch)
http://www.teamrwd.com/jarkko/DSC02928.JPG

And our front window (60mm =&gt; 2,4 inch)
http://www.teamrwd.com/jarkko/DSC02930.JPG

http://www.teamrwd.com/jarkko/DSC02931.JPG

Here is a pic from our dash... this is under construction
http://www.teamrwd.com/jarkko/DSC02937.JPG

And our floor (it's going to be a bit different, than other walls)
http://www.teamrwd.com/jarkko/DSC02938.JPG

[170typhoon]

keep the pics coming!

[cp]

i like it :D

[Team Maxxsonics - Mike]

This is coming along nicely. Keep the pics coming.

[HISPL]

Very cool!
Any concrete going to be poured there??? smile.gif

[Team RWD/Jarkko]

Originally posted by HISPL:
Very cool!
Any concrete going to be poured there??? smile.gif No concrete... but we'll have to see that... smile.gif

[KAL SPL]

Hell yeah loving this project , please keep the pics coming.

[Team Urban ArtFX]

looks intresting

[Kim]

Originally posted by HISPL:
Very cool!
Any concrete going to be poured there??? smile.gif The Finns don

[groundpounder2k2]

wow...thats alot of steel......how heavy is that thing...

[groundpounder2k2]

seems like a weeeee bit much tho.....
http://www.teamrwd.com/jarkko/camp1.jpg

[170typhoon]

:eek: :eek: :eek:

[MIKA/TEAMRWD]

update coming up soon...

[MIKA/TEAMRWD]

Originally posted by Kim:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by HISPL:
[b] Very cool!
Any concrete going to be poured there??? smile.gif The Finns don

[KAL SPL]

More pics please smile.gif

[Team RWD/Jarkko]

Here are some new pics... not much but some progress

http://www.teamrwd.com/jarkko/DSC02949.JPG

We are adding some steel in floor

http://www.teamrwd.com/jarkko/DSC02952.JPG

http://www.teamrwd.com/jarkko/DSC02955.JPG

Pic on the roof

http://www.teamrwd.com/jarkko/DSC02958.JPG

Well im supposed to do something... smile.gif

http://www.teamrwd.com/jarkko/DSC02963.JPG

Another floor pic

http://www.teamrwd.com/jarkko/DSC02965.JPG

This is how the car looks like on the outside

ps. there are some pics that we are going to show after the rules have gone out. Not that there would anything illegal... but you'll have to wait and see smile.gif

[Rip Rock]

Awsome job so far!!!

how did you guys manage to get the stock steering wheel under the dash?? Do you cut it down or anything??

[pipebomb]

wow.. all i can say is wow.
i can appriciate all the work that has gone into that car.... that is a TON of work ! i thought our steel box was intense ! hats off to you guys !

[KAL SPL]

Im speechless !

[Team Obsession]

lookin great! smile.gif

[groundpounder2k2]

That is awsome, and ALOT of work what the heck is it gonna weigh,and what the hell are you gonna haul it with

[170typhoon]

Originally posted by groundpounder2k2:
That is awsome, and ALOT of work what the heck is it gonna weigh,and what the hell are you gonna haul it with I was wondering the same thing :eek:

[Team RWD/Jarkko]

Originally posted by Rip Rock:
Awsome job so far!!!

how did you guys manage to get the stock steering wheel under the dash?? Do you cut it down or anything?? We didn't have to cut anything. Steering wheel is originally enough far away form the b-pillars (where the dash starts), so it was easy to do that.

[Team RWD/Jarkko]

Originally posted by groundpounder2k2:
That is awsome, and ALOT of work what the heck is it gonna weigh,and what the hell are you gonna haul it with Actually it doesn't weight that much. I think that the steel frame weights about 500kg for now. Though I haven't measured or caluculated it.

[Kim]

Jarkko our steel frame in the Fiesta we had was made off 40*40mm 4mm thick squar-rod, we "only" had 75 meters and the weight was 350kg....

[Kim]

Originally posted by Team RWD/Jarkko:
ps. there are some pics that we are going to show after the rules have gone out. Not that there would anything illegal... but you'll have to wait and see smile.gif Can that be a pic off the dash see from the front doors? :D tongue.gif

I think it will make a lot of people cry like babies :eek: :rolleyes: :D

[170typhoon]

Looks great! Keep the pics coming!

[Team RWD/Jarkko]

Originally posted by Kim:
Jarkko our steel frame in the Fiesta we had was made off 40*40mm 4mm thick squar-rod, we "only" had 75 meters and the weight was 350kg.... We used 60x40mm 2mm thick (96m), and 30x30 2mm thick (96m) and 50x30mm 3mm thick (24m)... then some other steel

I calculated a little over 600kg for the frame

[KAL SPL]

More pics please smile.gif

[KAL SPL]

What happened ?

[170typhoon]

Any updates? :confused:

[Team RWD/Jarkko]

Originally posted by KAL SPL:
What happened ? It will continue... have to take new pics soon

[DROPPINBOTTOM]

As it is looking so far, you can make extra money in between shows by working for Well Fargo delivering money to banks. :D

Work looks awesome...good luck.

[170typhoon]

More pics!!!

[boommerextreme]

LOOK at DB Drag Europe and World for new pics!!

[Team RWD/Jarkko]

These are few old pics from windshield frame... New pics coming soon

http://www.teamrwd.com/jarkko/DSC02950.JPG

Windshield...

http://www.teamrwd.com/jarkko/DSC02954.JPG

Another point of view

[KAL SPL]

That windscreen cant be legal surely ???

Keep the pics coming smile.gif

[MIKA/TEAMRWD]

why not???

[Uzzio]

Really nice smile.gif !!!!!I really hope it is legal so we can see it in the lanes smile.gif

[170typhoon]

There was a post a while back from one of the US judges that said you can build your windsheild flat from A-pillar to A-pillar. Dont remember if it says so in the rules or not

[Uzzio]

yes i remember this smile.gif ...i hope everyone does ;)

[MIKA/TEAMRWD]

http://audioforum.termpro.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=24;t=000895
:D

[Cactus Sounds]

Very intresting....... A piller to A piller.

[Team RWD/Jarkko]

Originally posted by 170typhoon:
There was a post a while back from one of the US judges that said you can build your windsheild flat from A-pillar to A-pillar. Dont remember if it says so in the rules or not It would be this post...

http://audioforum.termpro.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=24;t=000879

[TRENDSETTER]

Originally posted by Team RWD/Jarkko:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 170typhoon:
There was a post a while back from one of the US judges that said you can build your windsheild flat from A-pillar to A-pillar. Dont remember if it says so in the rules or not It would be this post...

http://audioforum.termpro.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=24;t=000879 </font>[/QUOTE]It has ALWAYS been legal I have had 2 different cars built that way!!
in 99 at finals!!

[170typhoon]

I wish I would have built mine like that :confused:

[boommerextreme]

HEHEHHEHE mine new one is!!!!

[NOS]

ARE YOU KIDDING ME? :mad: :mad: :mad:

4-3 This rule (4-3) applies to Extreme Division competitors only. The OEM glass in the windshield and / or side windows to the vehicle may be replaced with another material as long as that material approximates the location and functionality of the original equipment. (i.e. Plexiglas, bullet-proof glass, or another fully transparent material.)
Additional Guidelines:

[boommerextreme]

theres many cars over seas that have the windshield made like that. I was oked by a judge last year I think it was a VW Bug. I build my mew car the same way!

[Crazy dB Dave]

The install is looking very awesome guys! I would hate to see all of this hard work and all of this time built into this vehicle be DQed.

Yes, the window (as it is now) is in violation of rule 4.3 However, the install isn't done yet and it can still be "fixed". This could be a cage that will go around the dash. The top of this cage could be apart of the roof build down while the bottom might be apart of the dash...Or below the dash. And his front window could still be in the making and could be added in front of this cage. It is very hard to make a ruling on a vehicle before it's finish, but it is also good that we help point out rules to each other that we might overlook. Please take this critisim in a good way and keep up the great work and thanks for the pics!

More pics!

[boommerextreme]

There are cars over seas that have had this windshield for years now. I can name about 4 to 7 cars that have that same windshield. DB Steve is the one that said it was ok to do it like that it sayes SLANT that would be the slant of the a pillar. Nothing about followong the dash

[Cactus Sounds]

I know that this is going to get very intresting.

[Crazy dB Dave]

Originally posted by boommerextreme:
There are cars over seas that have had this windshield for years now. I can name about 4 to 7 cars that have that same windshield. DB Steve is the one that said it was ok to do it like that it sayes SLANT that would be the slant of the a pillar. Nothing about followong the dash Making your window to the same slant as the pillar is not the same as the factory slant of the glass...which the rule says. Sorry. I remember when dB Steve said it was okay for that ONE vehicle...because the factory windshield was very straight already and in the middle of the vehicle, the window wouldn't be very far off from the factory glass location.

[Team RWD/Jarkko]

[quote]Originally posted by NOS:
[b] ARE YOU KIDDING ME? :mad: :mad: :mad:

4-3 This rule (4-3) applies to Extreme Division competitors only. The OEM glass in the windshield and / or side windows to the vehicle may be replaced with another material as long as that material approximates the location and functionality of the original equipment. (i.e. Plexiglas, bullet-proof glass, or another fully transparent material.)
Additional Guidelines:

[Team RWD/Jarkko]

and it isn't easy to change this as we have very expensive window to that frame...

[Josh Schmillen]

The slant of the new windshield does approximate that of the OEM glass, the curvature is the main difference. I've seen a handful of vehicles in the US with the same windshield modification, the only main difference is the location of the steering wheel. Danny's two civics included, there are a few more vehicles built in late 90's with the same windshield set up. I'd be hard-pressed to believe this windshield will be deemed illegal.

[boommerextreme]

I say it wont there would be a lot of people that would have to tear there car apart that have been useing the SAME Windshild set ip as he has for years now.

[Team RWD/Jarkko]

"4-3 This rule (4-3) applies to Extreme Division competitors only. The OEM glass in the windshield and / or side windows to the vehicle may be replaced with another material as long as that material approximates the location and functionality of the original equipment. (i.e. Plexiglas, bullet-proof glass, or another fully transparent material.)
Additional Guidelines:

[NDMstang65]

Is that rule about intentionally shrinking cabin volume still in effect?? (sorry haven't read this years rule book...remembering from past year(s))

[NOS]

Originally posted by Team RWD/Jarkko:
and it isn't easy to change this as we have very expensive window to that frame... At the risk of sounding negative, I will say that it matters not to me if it cost you a million dollars.
This is exactly the type of rule bending that has led to a cancer in our sport which has resulted in the decline of participator and manufacturer support, AND I WONT LET IT HAPPEN AGAIN!
If the judges have OKed this than there is something definetly wrong here...I have already petitioned Wayne in regards to this particular matter...
WHY, when you guys are clearly building a new car to compete at high levels, would you go and push an issue like this? I dont understand your theory behind starting a HUGE DEAL before we get going on the dB Drag year?
I guess I would like to hear more from everyone at this point, and maybe some more pics?

[Rip Rock]

Frank, in the rules it says OEM slant..It says nothing about OEM curve. Which I asked judges last year to define it better in the rule book for this year. Along with a couple of of our problems, all we got is that it is too late the rules are already made up. It seems not fair, but it has nothing against it. Our civic last year at finals had a flat window, also look at paul nelsons old car, same thing.

If you look in that pic of the window, looks like the pass side follows the same oem slant, but it looks like the drivers side doesn't follow the oem slant, mabye it just the angle?

[Team RWD/Jarkko]

Originally posted by Rip Rock:
Frank, in the rules it says OEM slant..It says nothing about OEM curve. Which I asked judges last year to define it better in the rule book for this year. Along with a couple of of our problems, all we got is that it is too late the rules are already made up. It seems not fair, but it has nothing against it. Our civic last year at finals had a flat window, also look at paul nelsons old car, same thing.

If you look in that pic of the window, looks like the pass side follows the same oem slant, but it looks like the drivers side doesn't follow the oem slant, mabye it just the angle? It does follow. What you may see is driver side door on the back? Window position is exactly same as both a-pillar

[Rip Rock]

yea, couldn't really see in the pic. thanks for the reply smile.gif

[boommerextreme]

Aucally it the drivers door is open that gives it that affect I thought the same thing when I saw it. The windshields have been like this for many years. I dont have a problem with it. the car that I have now is nothing like it and Im doing fine with it. The car that Im building has the same kind of windshield in it. I dont see why everyone is bitching now when it ahs been around for years..

[NOS]

Originally posted by Rip Rock:
Frank, in the rules it says OEM slant..It says nothing about OEM curve. Which I asked judges last year to define it better in the rule book for this year. Along with a couple of of our problems, all we got is that it is too late the rules are already made up. It seems not fair, but it has nothing against it. Our civic last year at finals had a flat window, also look at paul nelsons old car, same thing.

If you look in that pic of the window, looks like the pass side follows the same oem slant, but it looks like the drivers side doesn't follow the oem slant, mabye it just the angle? Yes, you are correct. The slant of the window seems to follow that of the OEM. The rules do not say anything about curve, so there is nothing wrong with a flat windshield. The rules DO state: "...as long as that material approximates the location and functionality of the original equipment." What do we define as approximate location of the OEM windshield. Is 18" close enough? Right? Thats about where the OEM glass was located....+/- 18". We can find many more places in the rules to approximate...right? Lets all get together and go circumventing...it will be fun :mad: Nelson, Danny B., etc did have flat windshields, but were "in the approximate location".

Jarkko, can you actually take a 2 measurements: 1 from the bottom of the OEM glass location to the new frame and also one at the top? I would like to know the distance.

[MIKE SPL MAN]

I think this is 100% legal for the Monster Class-Monster Division.

When the judges said "yes" for A-pillar to A-pillar, more thought should have been put into this. Almost every car is different, when looking at the slant/location of the windshield. Some cars can have a flat windshield from A-pillar to A-pillar without intruding into the cab by much. (Retaining the rule of "appoximate location"). As you can now see, the general "Yes" can really throw a wrench in things. Every other rule in dB Drag has been detailed with certain criteria, including measurements. Now we have to understand "approximate location" as being "where ever the windshield lands when I am done welding it in because my vehicle is different and I can intrude into the cab by 18 inches" (that can be for next years rules) Saying "Yes" to 1 vehicle is one thing, but doing something because 'the other guy was allowed to' is totally different.

I am going to love to see how the rest of the dash construction rules pan out with this windshield. The glass starts at the a-pillar, so the dash can come 16" inside the cab....you can figure out the rest....

[Rip Rock]

Originally posted by NOS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Rip Rock:
Frank, in the rules it says OEM slant..It says nothing about OEM curve. Which I asked judges last year to define it better in the rule book for this year. Along with a couple of of our problems, all we got is that it is too late the rules are already made up. It seems not fair, but it has nothing against it. Our civic last year at finals had a flat window, also look at paul nelsons old car, same thing.

If you look in that pic of the window, looks like the pass side follows the same oem slant, but it looks like the drivers side doesn't follow the oem slant, mabye it just the angle? Yes, you are correct. The slant of the window seems to follow that of the OEM. The rules do not say anything about curve, so there is nothing wrong with a flat windshield. The rules DO state: "...as long as that material approximates the location and functionality of the original equipment." What do we define as approximate location of the OEM windshield. Is 18" close enough? Right? Thats about where the OEM glass was located....+/- 18". We can find many more places in the rules to approximate...right? Lets all get together and go circumventing...it will be fun :mad: Nelson, Danny B., etc did have flat windshields, but were "in the approximate location".

Jarkko, can you actually take a 2 measurements: 1 from the bottom of the OEM glass location to the new frame and also one at the top? I would like to know the distance. </font>[/QUOTE]Good points yet again! We can see both sides here but mabye a judge can reply to this thread :confused: . Mabye this rule needs to be diffined better?!?!?
What did dannys front window look like Frank?

[cp]

http://audioforum.termpro.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=24;t=000879
http://audioforum.termpro.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=24;t=000895
a pilar to a pilar , so its legal !

[TRENDSETTER]

Originally posted by Rip Rock:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by NOS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Rip Rock:
Frank, in the rules it says OEM slant..It says nothing about OEM curve. Which I asked judges last year to define it better in the rule book for this year. Along with a couple of of our problems, all we got is that it is too late the rules are already made up. It seems not fair, but it has nothing against it. Our civic last year at finals had a flat window, also look at paul nelsons old car, same thing.

If you look in that pic of the window, looks like the pass side follows the same oem slant, but it looks like the drivers side doesn't follow the oem slant, mabye it just the angle? Yes, you are correct. The slant of the window seems to follow that of the OEM. The rules do not say anything about curve, so there is nothing wrong with a flat windshield. The rules DO state: "...as long as that material approximates the location and functionality of the original equipment." What do we define as approximate location of the OEM windshield. Is 18" close enough? Right? Thats about where the OEM glass was located....+/- 18". We can find many more places in the rules to approximate...right? Lets all get together and go circumventing...it will be fun :mad: Nelson, Danny B., etc did have flat windshields, but were "in the approximate location".

Jarkko, can you actually take a 2 measurements: 1 from the bottom of the OEM glass location to the new frame and also one at the top? I would like to know the distance. </font>[/QUOTE]Good points yet again! We can see both sides here but mabye a judge can reply to this thread :confused: . Mabye this rule needs to be diffined better?!?!?
What did dannys front window look like Frank? </font>[/QUOTE]I do see your points frank!!!
my windshield was not that drastic of distance from oem glass seal, I think in the middle it was only about 4" if that away from the factory seal!!!!

I see where this is actually shrinking the volume of the car!!
I love the work put into this car buit I do see an issue!!! :(

[Broken Silence - Johnny]

This windshield is obviously not legal. It doesn't approximate the slant of the OEM windshield.

It is also not in the same location(or close to) the factory windshield.

[Kim]

Originally posted by Rip Rock:

If you look in that pic of the window, looks like the pass side follows the same oem slant, but it looks like the drivers side doesn't follow the oem slant, mabye it just the angle? http://www.teamrwd.com/jarkko/DSC02954.JPG
What you see at the driver side is the doorframe...

This is an original SAAB 900 (coup

[Xiph0id]

Originally posted by Broken Silence - Johnny:
This windshield is obviously not legal. It doesn't approximate the slant of the OEM windshield.

It is also not in the same location(or close to) the factory windshield. I disagree.

From the looks of it it does follow the original slant of the window.

No it's not in the same location as the window but it has been said that going from A Pillar to A Pillar is legal as in the above link.

X

[Kim]

Is this car illeagal to? :rolleyes:
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/322000-322999/322009_227_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/322000-322999/322009_349.jpg

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/322000-322999/322009_402_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/322000-322999/322009_401_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/322000-322999/322009_404_full.jpg

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/322000-322999/322009_403_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/322000-322999/322009_406_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/322000-322999/322009_407_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/322000-322999/322009_417_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/322000-322999/322009_419_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/322000-322999/322009_412_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/322000-322999/322009_426_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/322000-322999/322009_421_full.jpg

[Team RWD/Jarkko]

All I can say that we have builded it according judges comitee's decicion. Now some of you are saying that it is not legal, although ruling clearly said a-pillar to a-pillar. Yes saab has more curvier oem glass than others with same setup. But still all of those are illegal if this is illegal...

And there isn't anything on the rules that say this is illegal.

[PFUNK]

We are trying to get people in to the sport not out of it.Every year poeple try to see how far thay can take the bend rules.That makes people pissed off.Piss enough poeple off and soon there will be no DBDRAG.Is it to hard to go by the rules.For some poeple i think it is.

[SPL Jester]

the slant of the a pillar and the WINDSHIELD are two completely different angles. On that particular vehicle, on your screen, use a pen as a straight edge... the two lines are COMPLETELY off.. as far as reference to the CURVE of the windshield... I take that as the shape of the base/top of the windshield. unless you have the means to BEND ( read CURVE) Plexi ( like Danny's purple civic) then the flat glass/plexi needs to follow the lines of the WINDSHIELD... NOT the A Pillar.

to me the shape of the windshield should follow the top of the windshield to the base of the windshield..which in this case would be INFRONT OF THE STEERINGWHEEL

[NOS]

When was the last time you saw a vehicle with the windshield glass hanging above and behind the steering wheel? :mad:

[NOS]

I went out of my way to make a five piece "wrap around" windshield so my Astro STILL ACTUALLY LOOKS LIKE A MOTOR VEHICLE...(3.5 inch glass and all steel frame with no bolts tongue.gif ) Soooooo....you guys can call me whatever you want, but this windshield will NEVER fly!!! tongue.gif If I were you I would start working on a "PLAN B" now.
Just FYI, Noone in the states has a windshield that even comes close to your abomination, and I have retained a growing number of high level competitor support in relation to this matter. smile.gif

[jhellemn]

I'd have to say I TOTALLY agree with you Frank!

Kara Lucius & John Hellemn

[Team DD Belgium - Dieter]

I think you should not attack TEAM RWD/ Jarkko on this one! He asked it nicely to the judges en they say it's OK :confused: Look at the link, he's says clearly that his window curves more than normally!

http://audioforum.termpro.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=24;t=000879

BTW, I think the have shorted the steering rod (or how do you call that), in a regular Saab 900 the steering weel is more "in" the cabine.

In the following link, slide 10 to be exactly, you kan see the stock interior ;)
http://www.saabclub.be/images/slides/slideshowsaab900.htm

[NOS]

This is not an attack...if you read my posts closely, I have made my ARGUMENT. Despite what others claim to be running and legal, I have never seen something so far from the guidelines WE set up. I have participated with Wayne,dB Drag, and SPHELL(copyright@1997) life for over 8 years now.

THIS IS NOT PERSONAL. THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK ON ANYONE. I am just a concerned competitor...

[KAL SPL]

Would be nice if judges could look at the photos posted and make a call so that everyone knows , is that to much to ask ?
Would stop alot of arguments wouldnt it ?

[NOS]

Originally posted by Kim:
Is this car illeagal to? :rolleyes:
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/322000-322999/322009_227_full.jpg
Yes, I would have to say that that this windshield is legal, even though Paul Nelson of Team Sick Bastard was almost DQ a couple of times for alot less than this. Your windshield is intruding into the cabin/dash even more than his was, so you are walking the tightwire and you know it.
Dont try and swing your favor to RWD's windshield cause you know its gonna cause ALOT of problems.
Dont forget we won 1999 dB Drag World Finals 2 subs with a VW Rabbit Extreme Vehicle...(our windshield did not intrude into cabin at all :rolleyes: )
PS: We are familiar with the Saabs over here in the States, were not on Mars you know :rolleyes: ...if they made windshield 3-5 sections, then it would follow much more closely to the original design. If you guys get all that expensive glass cut before you start welding, thats your problem.

[NOS]

Originally posted by boommerextreme:
I say it wont there would be a lot of people that would have to tear there car apart that have been useing the SAME Windshild set ip as he has for years now. Lets see some pics...

[170typhoon]

I can think of one vehicle in ex 2 that would be questionable but has competed with no probs

[Broken Silence - Johnny]

No one is questioning whether it is legal to build from a-pillar to a-pillar, we all know that is legal. What we are questioning is the placement of the windshield. It is not anywhere near the factory location of the windshield, and it really isn't close to the factory slant either. It violates rule 4-3 This rule (4-3) applies to Extreme Division competitors only. The OEM glass in the windshield and / or side windows to the vehicle may be replaced with another material as long as that material approximates the location and functionality of the original equipment. (i.e. Plexiglas, bullet-proof glass, or another fully transparent material.) Judging from this picture....
http://www.teamrwd.com/jarkko/DSC02954.JPGThe bottom of the new winshield is probably around 18" away from where the factory windshield was. This does not approximate the location.

It is also likely that your dash will be illegal. Rule 3-11a, says that the vehicle must have a dash. It also says that the dash is bounded in front by the firewall. To measure your dash you would go from the firewall in the center of the vehicle. Therefore your dash would not extend inside the cabin very much, if at all.

I'm not attacking you, I'm just letting you know about problems that I forsee. Also, if a judge told you your vehicle is legal without even seeing the actual vehicle, they are a bad judge. I believe it is possible to say something is not legal by pictures, because some things, such as this, are obvious.

[NOS]

Say it with me now...Go Johnny...Go Johnny...Go Johnny...preach on! :D

[170typhoon]

I would like to know what the ruling is on this

[Crazy dB Dave]

I would like to know if we are going to follow our own rule book or not! :rolleyes:

[NOS]

C'mon Dave, look where the glass is in proportion to the steering wheel and passenger compartment. And what do you call the top...a MOONVISOR? :confused: gimmeabreak

[DE LA PAZ]

well it is a big isue here, originaly what I understaing to build a winshield was that the replacement showld be no more than 1/4 or 1/2 inch gap from the factory glass (if you keep the factory glass outside for the locks) that means for the 100% of the winshield. But what if you take the factory one out, you can fallow any direction that best fits your needs
Judges OK it, (flat winshiwld) now are several bwild like that so either we change ours to a flat or they change theme to a curby style.
This is a hard decicion for the judges Good luck!
I was going to change mine to a flat, I will wait to see.....

[Cactus Sounds]

I was going to change mine to a flat, I will wait to see.....
lol......

[NDMstang65]

Originally posted by Crazy dB Dave:
I would like to know if we are going to follow our own rule book or not! :rolleyes: Hey Dave - Do you remember all the hours that we pondered on making it flat? and we decided against it due to the rulebook stating the 'approximate loaction' thing and about intentionally shrinking cabin volume... ;) That's been a couple years now...and hasnt changed

[Crazy dB Dave]

Originally posted by NDMstang65:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Crazy dB Dave:
I would like to know if we are going to follow our own rule book or not! :rolleyes: Hey Dave - Do you remember all the hours that we pondered on making it flat? and we decided against it due to the rulebook stating the 'approximate loaction' thing and about intentionally shrinking cabin volume... ;) That's been a couple years now...and hasnt changed </font>[/QUOTE]Yup, I sure do! It would have been much cheaper, easier, and stronger if we made it flat, but the rules are the rules....And we followed it.

[TeamSubGoPoof]

Originally posted by DE LA PAZ:
well it is a big isue here, originaly what I understaing to build a winshield was that the replacement showld be no more than 1/4 or 1/2 inch gap from the factory glass (if you keep the factory glass outside for the locks) that means for the 100% of the winshield. But what if you take the factory one out, you can fallow any direction that best fits your needs
Judges OK it, (flat winshiwld) now are several bwild like that so either we change ours to a flat or they change theme to a curby style.
This is a hard decicion for the judges Good luck!
I was going to change mine to a flat, I will wait to see..... i don't think the issue is actually with the glass being flat, but i think its more about the shrinking of interior volume, also if he hadn't posted pics and would have done his build ups no one probobly would have known

[Rip Rock]

Originally posted by 170typhoon:
I can think of one vehicle in ex 2 that would be questionable but has competed with no probs Our old extreme car last year was pushing the rules on this topic. Was this the car you were refering too??? It has since been sold. http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/748000-748999/748361_4.jpg

[ 01-31-2005, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Rip Rock ]

[SPL2000]

Originally posted by NOS:
I have retained a growing number of high level competitor support in relation to this matter. smile.gif not sure if im "high level" or not but you can add me to your list of supporters. :D

[boommerextreme]

Theres 1 car. What about Team Louds 5+ car, Kims ext 2 car that was oked, the WV Bug that was oked, I think that Warrior has a flat window too, Steve said it was legal I dont see the problem. WHat are they going to do when they oked there windows??? Make them tear them out?? I have the same window in the car that Im building but it dosent set in that far. If I knew were that post was with the VW Bug it sat in that far too and itwas oked by a judge.

[scoupen]

I say bring it....

Damn nice welding guys....Hate to think about the cost of all that steel over there....I know the prices have gone up quite a bit over here lately.....

[team basket kase]

I have yet to do extreme.
I am creative.
I have not that kinda money to do extreme.
Has anyone ever considered the possibility of utilizing the efforts of those who construct acrylic aquariums? I have seen how they make them, and it is impressive. Not the tank in yer home, but the ones that you go to see, of course! With some smooth talking, maybe some of you can find a tech to help make an optically clear and curved winshield of plexi. Curves have strength also, correct? Just input from nobody!

[170typhoon]

Originally posted by Rip Rock:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 170typhoon:
I can think of one vehicle in ex 2 that would be questionable but has competed with no probs Our old extreme car last year was pushing the rules on this topic. Was this the car you were refering too??? It has since been sold. http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/748000-748999/748361_4.jpg </font>[/QUOTE]No I wasnt referring to another vehicle in ex 2, not yours rip

[NOS]

Originally posted by boommerextreme:
Theres 1 car. What about Team Louds 5+ car, Kims ext 2 car that was oked, the WV Bug that was oked, I think that Warrior has a flat window too, Steve said it was legal I dont see the problem. WHat are they going to do when they oked there windows??? Make them tear them out?? I have the same window in the car that Im building but it dosent set in that far. If I knew were that post was with the VW Bug it sat in that far too and itwas oked by a judge. The point of the matter is that I could make a "flat" style windshield work in a VW Rabbit, Dodge Omni, or Chevy Blazer, etc...and it would be legal if done correctly. The vehicle in question here is in violation of AT LEAST 2 rules and should not be judged legal.

[boommerextreme]

On the rules page all the judges have rendered the window LEGAL!!!

[TeamSubGoPoof]

Originally posted by Team RWD/Jarkko:
These are few old pics from windshield frame... New pics coming soon

http://www.teamrwd.com/jarkko/DSC02950.JPG

Windshield...

http://www.teamrwd.com/jarkko/DSC02954.JPG

Another point of view so his new dash is going to be built on the woofer side of the windshield?

if he does this does that not move the mic positioning at LEAST a foot closer to his subs than factory window would be?

[Xiph0id]

Originally posted by 170typhoon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Rip Rock:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 170typhoon:
I can think of one vehicle in ex 2 that would be questionable but has competed with no probs Our old extreme car last year was pushing the rules on this topic. Was this the car you were refering too??? It has since been sold. http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/748000-748999/748361_4.jpg </font>[/QUOTE]No I wasnt referring to another vehicle in ex 2, not yours rip </font>[/QUOTE]Which one then?

X

[dbWarrior]

http://www.termpro.com/asp/eventresults5.asp?Image=E5126W1M27639P34&Event_ID=5126

This picture is from season 2002.

[boommerextreme]

Thats what Im saying it has been around forever wha the problem now??

[dbWarrior]

Ya. Has been this way and will been in future. There is no reason to change it now.

I am suprise if Jarkko has any interest to show more building pictures to us because it cause so huge bashing... :(

[Kim]

Originally posted by boommerextreme:
Theres 1 car. What about Team Louds 5+ car, Kims ext 2 car that was oked, the WV Bug that was oked, I think that Warrior has a flat window too, Steve said it was legal I dont see the problem. WHat are they going to do when they oked there windows??? Make them tear them out?? I have the same window in the car that Im building but it dosent set in that far. If I knew were that post was with the VW Bug it sat in that far too and itwas oked by a judge. I Think ALL EX cars from Finland that are LOUD have flat windsheilds.
The EX1 Fiesta we had has a flat window.
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/3/web/219000-219999/219360_187_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/3/web/219000-219999/219360_186_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/3/web/219000-219999/219360_174_full.jpg

The Team Soundpressure Express has a flat window.
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/3/web/219000-219999/219360_192_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/3/web/219000-219999/219360_199_full.jpg

Rip Rock:
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/748000-748999/748361_4_full.jpg

Not flat but still not OEM...
http://www.crank-it-up.net/crank/gallery/albums/sollentuna171103/PIC00068.jpg

And the list goes on....

[ 02-01-2005, 12:16 AM: Message edited by: Kim ]

[Luin Haden]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v73/LuinHaden/windowpic.jpg

I think a different pic is needed.

The red line is the new window line, if moved forward towards the front.

The blue line is what appears to be the factory slant.

[Kim]

Originally posted by NOS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kim:
Is this car illeagal to? :rolleyes:
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/322000-322999/322009_227_full.jpg
Yes, I would have to say that that this windshield is legal, even though Paul Nelson of Team Sick Bastard was almost DQ a couple of times for alot less than this.</font>[/QUOTE]Well SEVERAL multipoint judges has be judgeing this car and NO ONE has had any problems with the window.... Ask: Ray, Tor, Box, Detleaf...


Originally posted by NOS:

Your windshield is intruding into the cabin/dash even more than his was, so you are walking the tightwire and you know it. I never even tought about it, the judges said that you can build from A-pillar to A-pillar, and that

[Equalizer]

It is hard to "judge" a vehicle from a photo. I would reccomend that you contact your nearest judge and have him help you determine the placement for your windshield.

[NOS]

You guys are missing the POINT, maybe Im not being CLEAR enough. I AM NOT BASHING!
All the pics you just loaded seem like "normal" windows, and I say that they look legal. The vehicle in question (by nature of the vehicle itself) is NOT being constructed in a legal way. None of these vehicles has windshield recessed in app. 8" inches at the top and 18" at the bottom.( hey, people can get back on here and try and make this ugly, but whwere is the more pics and MEASUREMENTS we asked for? You dont want to reply on that ,HUH?)
The reason I am so upset, is Ive seen people take a lot of grief over here for much less rule infringments, and I TRULY believe you guys are just testing the waters with your pics to see if you can get away with it. This thing is gonna snowball into a flurry of arguments and windshield changes right before we start a new season. I AM AGAINST IT!
Maybe you should stop looking at it so arrogantly, Im not afraid that its gonna be louder or something, just the overall direction its going to push the construction of ALL of our vehicles, and I (for one) think it is very wrong.
I will say again too, dont care if judges OKed it or not...there is a problem here that needs more attention by judges and competitors alike...
IM NOT GOING AWAY... tongue.gif

[Team RWD/Jarkko]

Originally posted by NOS:
You guys are missing the POINT, maybe Im not being CLEAR enough. I AM NOT BASHING!
All the pics you just loaded seem like "normal" windows, and I say that they look legal. The vehicle in question (by nature of the vehicle itself) is NOT being constructed in a legal way. None of these vehicles has windshield recessed in app. 8" inches at the top and 18" at the bottom.( hey, people can get back on here and try and make this ugly, but whwere is the more pics and MEASUREMENTS we asked for? You dont want to reply on that ,HUH?)
The reason I am so upset, is Ive seen people take a lot of grief over here for much less rule infringments, and I TRULY believe you guys are just testing the waters with your pics to see if you can get away with it. This thing is gonna snowball into a flurry of arguments and windshield changes right before we start a new season. I AM AGAINST IT!
Maybe you should stop looking at it so arrogantly, Im not afraid that its gonna be louder or something, just the overall direction its going to push the construction of ALL of our vehicles, and I (for one) think it is very wrong.
I will say again too, dont care if judges OKed it or not...there is a problem here that needs more attention by judges and competitors alike...
IM NOT GOING AWAY... tongue.gif I have the measures, but i'm not going to post them on here, cause it's not your job to rule this issue. All i can say it's way less than 18"...

I'm going to do as Sam said...

[Kim]

If you ask the multipoint judges and they tell what you can do, then you will build it like that.

And if you can

[170typhoon]

:confused: I would also do what Sam said, have a judge over there look at it and see what they determine

[Broken Silence - Johnny]

If your local judge rules that vehicle as legal, he has lost his freaking mind. I don't care what they say, there is no way possible it is.

Kim: Your windshield is borderline in the fiesta, just like paul nelson's. But its not even close to being as far away from factory as this one.

[MIKE SPL MAN]

Everyone keeps saying..."Its legal, its legal".... Why? Just because the judges said 'OK' to one vehicle on the internet without seeing it (bad choice). PLEASE, show me in the rule book where it states" A-pillar to A-pillar". Maybe I am blind and my laser surgery didnt work, but I DO NOT see this ANYWHERE. Drop the A-pillar point, this is just an excuse to circumvent the rules for this vehicle.

Also, everyone keeps getting off track with "Flat windshields have been around forever, blah, blah blah..." Of course they have. There is NO problem with a flat windshield.

I just want to know, how far is TOO far from the 'approximate location'. If this winshield is legal, I guess we can EXTEND our windshields out over the hood by 18" also, right? It is the same thing. After someone builds the windshield 18" into the cab, then they can use another 4" of glass...= 22". Wouldnt you like to have a 22" intrusion. BTW: I will use these measurements unless otherwise provided the TRUE distance you will not provide. I think you should tell us the distances so we know how far we can break the rules too.

There is a difference between your windshield and the rest of the windshields you are trying compare it to.....IT IS NOWHERE NEAR THE OEM LOCATION.

One last point... Jamie Delapez brings up a GREAT point. The rules state: If you leave your factor glass in, you can only deviate by 1/4-1/2" away. But, in this case...remove the factory glass (remove the rules) and BAM.....you have yourself an additional 18" intrusion into the cab. Oh...life is sweet :mad:

[Crazy dB Dave]

Exactly true...What is keeping somebody from flipping their curved window around backwards and having it stick into the cab 18-20"? "Ohh, but it is still joined at the pillar!" That is hog wash! Oh I know! The RULES!

Judges are suppose to follow the rules. If a judge makes a bad call...Then oh well! Judges aren't always perfect. This one car will not slide! You will not take a judges call that was wrong or mis-understood and turn it into building something that is "okay".

As far as I'm concerned...If this car keeps this type of window, its scores will never mean anything to anybody! You can break a 190...Who cares! If you want to take glory of building something loud....And win on the same level as the rest of us...Then build by the rules! I put too much effort into making sure that my vehicle is by the rules to have somebody come along and take my glory of being louder because they can't and will not follow a simple rule book! Have fun with your monstor scores!

[Nate Scholten]

All winshield rules aside, how is that NOT considered a modification to the OEM skin of the vehicle? Is the winshield not considered part of the OEM skin?

To me, this seems like a blatant attempt to decrease interior volume/sub-to-mic distance.

[Mr Bump]

Right, not an EX competitor, thought Id get that in first.

All Im going to do is comment on pics and rules.

Original slant - Looks to be about 50 degrees on a standard Saab 900 screen. Looks to be 80-85 degrees on the "new" screen. Not exactly copying the original slant.

Reducing cabin - The dash on a Saab 900 is about 12 inch deep. The steering wheel is now behind the windscreen. That, in my opinion, is a rather large amount of cabin reduction.

Read into those two comments as you wish.

Flat screens are not a problem IMO, they just need to be used in such a way that doesnt redcue cabin or doesnt take away from the original "slant" of the screen.

[dBSteve]

Originally posted by Mr Bump:
Right, not an EX competitor, thought Id get that in first.

All Im going to do is comment on pics and rules.

Original slant - Looks to be about 50 degrees on a standard Saab 900 screen. Looks to be 80-85 degrees on the "new" screen. Not exactly copying the original slant.

Reducing cabin - The dash on a Saab 900 is about 12 inch deep. The steering wheel is now behind the windscreen. That, in my opinion, is a rather large amount of cabin reduction.

Read into those two comments as you wish.

Flat screens are not a problem IMO, they just need to be used in such a way that doesnt redcue cabin or doesnt take away from the original "slant" of the screen. that and the vehicle still has a 'factory' appearance.

[Rip Rock]

Mabye more pics of your window would help, so people could get a better understanging of your relation between your window and OEM window curve...

How far does you window have to be from your factory curve before it becomes illegal?

[Conclusive]

I would not post another pic for these guys to 'critique.'
If the judges say it's legal, then IT'S LEGAL.
tongue.gif

[ea1]

Just another reason I haven't been competing. If the windshield is allowed to be moved back THAT far, it is truly sad.

[Kim]

Originally posted by Mr Bump:


Reducing cabin - The dash on a Saab 900 is about 12 inch deep. The steering wheel is now behind the windscreen. That, in my opinion, is a rather large amount of cabin reduction.
Well the steering wheel are NOT in the OEM location...
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/11/web/239000-239999/239448_3_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/5/web/437000-437999/437773_8_full.jpg

In an OEM SAAB 90% of the steering wheel are BEHIND the A-pillar, in the Team RWD SAAB 90% are INFRONT of the A-pillar....
http://www.teamrwd.com/jarkko/DSC02954.JPG

[dbWarrior]

Good point, KIM smile.gif

[stany]

I have mixed feelings .
With all respect to RWD .

[MIKE SPL MAN]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kim:
]Well the steering wheel are NOT in the OEM location...
In an OEM SAAB 90% of the steering wheel are BEHIND the A-pillar, in the Team RWD SAAB 90% are INFRONT of the A-pillar....


Why is that a good point???? The steering wheel has NOTHING to do with the placement of the windshield. Have you people lost your mind? This whole 'discussion' is about REPLACEMENT WINDSHIELD LOCATION. Post some pics of a SAAB's OEM radio location, glove box, and ash tray too....surely that has a part in the placement of the new windshield.

sniff...sniff....sniff....I smell circumventing :rolleyes:

[Mr Bump]

My personal opinion.

http://www.eastcoastchoons.co.uk/screen.jpg

A flat screen, in that car should atleast be where the white lines are, replicating the A pillar slant, but would be more inkeeping with the looks of the car if it was were the blue lines are.

[CN_Sounds]

Isnt this the right way to do it ? smile.gif

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/5/web/665000-665999/665897_23_full.jpg


http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/5/web/665000-665999/665897_109_full.jpg

[Kim]

Originally posted by MIKE SPL MAN:
ost some pics of a SAAB's OEM radio location, glove box, and ash tray too....surely that has a part in the placement of the new windshield.
You have 2 in my last post... :rolleyes:

If you want more here

[Anthony]

Originally posted by ea1:
Just another reason I haven't been competing. If the windshield is allowed to be moved back THAT far, it is truly sad. same here Nate , the more i read about crap like this. The more i think i will contunie to build my street rod.

[FdBDRA ML]

Originally posted by boommerextreme:
Theres 1 car. What about Team Louds 5+ car, Kims ext 2 car that was oked, the WV Bug that was oked, I think that Warrior has a flat window too, Steve said it was legal I dont see the problem. WHat are they going to do when they oked there windows??? Make them tear them out?? I have the same window in the car that Im building but it dosent set in that far. If I knew were that post was with the VW Bug it sat in that far too and itwas oked by a judge. YES our EXT 5+ car have window straight to a-pilar to a-pilar.

I say we can

[Mr Bump]

Marko, your original Volvo windscreen is not anywhere near as curved as that of the Saab above.

http://www.volvoadventures.com/jh1-11front.jpg

Not the best pic in the world, but it shows that an A-pillar to A-pillar screen in that car still resembles the original position.

[170typhoon]

I say we can

[Broken Silence - Johnny]

This is the only windshield we are discussing at the moment. We are discussing the placement of the windshield in relation to the factory one, and how it effects the vehicles legality. That is ALL we are discussing. No one is attacking anyone, we are just making points. I understand that windshields cost a lot, but I also know that if we allow this car to blatantly violate rules because it would cost them a lot to buy a new windshield, what do we allow next?

I have talked to a couple of the other judges about this, and gotten some opinions. It just seems they arent man enough to come here and post them...

[170typhoon]

Hmmmm I hope the judges make a decision soon, I am sure Team RWD would like to know

[SPL Jester]

$10K in US dollars for a windshield?? I say no way. it's just steel and plexi/lexan/real glass.


and i'm with Nate and Anthony... I think i'll just build a small ground pounder.

[170typhoon]

I am not 100% sure on this Gabe but I do believe that they are using real glass over there.

[TeamSubGoPoof]

Originally posted by 170typhoon:
I am not 100% sure on this Gabe but I do believe that they are using real glass over there. :eek:

[170typhoon]

I know thats insane

[NDMstang65]

I've got one of the same exact volvo wagon's taht they are using in finland...

If anyone wants an original pic of one i can take one real quick smile.gif

[TeamSubGoPoof]

Originally posted by 170typhoon:
I know thats insane now i know why they didn't wanna drill into their windows

[boommerextreme]

Originally posted by boommerextreme:
Yes they do use real glass. Go back to the pics of the 4 or so FLAT WINDOW car can look again!! There is more than 1 that is resesed that far. It was oked, If I knew were the hell that PIC of the VW BUG was at it was in that far too, and it was oked too. What if they were to change the rules??? What if what they come up with makes some of the car that were oked to be illegal!! then what are they going to do?? If a-pillar to a-pillar is ok for 1 car they should be ok for all. If people that were oked have to redo I think that is going to destroy the Extreme cars. I know that it is probaly close to what he said it was to redo the windows in alot of these cars over there. You cant just take the glass out because its real glass. So new 4" glass, Metal, Work, Time, welding wire, Bondo, and new paint about 8,000 to 10,000.00!

[Broken Silence - Johnny]

Originally posted by boommerextreme:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by boommerextreme:
Yes they do use real glass. Go back to the pics of the 4 or so FLAT WINDOW car can look again!! There is more than 1 that is resesed that far. It was oked, If I knew were the hell that PIC of the VW BUG was at it was in that far too, and it was oked too. What if they were to change the rules??? What if what they come up with makes some of the car that were oked to be illegal!! then what are they going to do?? If a-pillar to a-pillar is ok for 1 car they should be ok for all. If people that were oked have to redo I think that is going to destroy the Extreme cars. I know that it is probaly close to what he said it was to redo the windows in alot of these cars over there. You cant just take the glass out because its real glass. So new 4" glass, Metal, Work, Time, welding wire, Bondo, and new paint about 8,000 to 10,000.00! </font>[/QUOTE]So you think that every car should be judged exactly the same, no matter the car? You have officially lost your mind. All cars are different, and need to be judged that way.

[boommerextreme]

I guess I have LOST my mind... What Im saying is if they say that the windowon the top has to be no further than 3" from the factory location and the bottom 4" from factory. or something like that what about the cars that have already been oked?? Dose the people that have a factory windshield that crurves out 12" have a disavantage over the ones that only curves out 3"?? So if you followed the FACTORY lines 1 window is going to be in 9 more in. closer to the face plate than the other.

[Crazy dB Dave]

Originally posted by boommerextreme:
I guess I have LOST my mind... What Im saying is if they say that the windowon the top has to be no further than 3" from the factory location and the bottom 4" from factory. or something like that what about the cars that have already been oked?? Dose the people that have a factory windshield that crurves out 12" have a disavantage over the ones that only curves out 3"?? So if you followed the FACTORY lines 1 window is going to be in 9 more in. closer to the face plate than the other. This window rule has been around and hasn't changed...

Yes, if this rule was changed and a competitor didn't replace their windshield in the same location/slant, then yes, they would have to rebuild. Also, this isn't new...Competitors have had to rebuild their windows before to abide by the rules. Just because somebody went and built it...And it cost a lot to do so...Doesn't give them the right to be "okayed". I could care less if the window is made of pure gold or is worth over a million bucks...If it's not by the rules...Then it's not by the rules! Yes, vehicle choice is important! Some have advantages over others! Of course you can't replace your windows PERFECTLY....But you can get them close! The guys that aren't happy with this window (including myself) wouldn't care if the window was say....Flat, but connected at the bottom of the factory window frame/firewall. And say at the corners of the vehicle...The glass sticks out 2-3"....(Just like the other pics that you guys have been posting)....We let that slide! However....This is a BIG diff...And is cearly way off the mark. I guess in the past history of dB Drag...Everybody respected each other and just tried their best to stay as close to the factory placement/slant as they could. However, it is clear to a lot of us that this vehicle has other motives. THAT is why we are all concerned.

[boommerextreme]

Thats fine "but" if the JUDGES sayes its ok then turns around AFTER its all done and been competeing then how is it right to make them tear it out??

[Equalizer]

I again reccomend if your are unsure of your windshield, please contact your nearest judging official.

It is hard to judge from photos. It would be in your best interest to contact the nearest judge.

It appears you are putting a large amount of effort into this project. Best wishes in its success

[boommerextreme]

Like I said what if you do that and they say its ok... then you got to a show and someone complains and another judge or Wayne sayes its not legal??? How is that right to make them tear it out?

[Broken Silence - Johnny]

Its right because they are wrong. If your local sherrif said you could rob a bank, are you going to tell the fbi that its ok cuz the sheriff said it was?

[boommerextreme]

Who is wrong the judge at the show thats saying that is illegal or the judge that said its ok??

[dBSteve]

who said their install was legal?

[boommerextreme]

On the rule section you said that the judges have came to a decion and it is legal.

[dBSteve]

Originally posted by boommerextreme:
On the rule section you said that the judges have came to a decion and it is legal. rigth, that you can build A-pillar to A-pillar as long as no other rules are violated

[boommerextreme]

But that not what you post said and that is what I was going by not everyone else. So how far is too far???

[NDMstang65]

Originally posted by boommerextreme:
But that not what you post said and that is what I was going by not everyone else. So how far is too far??? that far is too far ;)

Come on man..it's obvious that it in no way shape or form approximates the original window location...and is intentionally shrinking cabin volume.

If i recall correctly...somewhere in the pages of rule book...it has stated in the past or does state that the windshield needs to approximate the factory location. How can you even jig the mic on a windshield that is that far back? The dash isn't even close to imitating the factory position...so the mic jig can't be put in the proper place...nor could it be jigged properly...it's obvious that it doesnt have a notch in the A pillar that the mic jig can go up against for proper placement. I could have sworn that the jig had to touch the dash and the OEM factory A pillar...in order for the sensor to be placed properly

Maybe i'm completely wrong...but that's just my view on it...

[NDMstang65]

So where does the dash go?

http://www.teamrwd.com/jarkko/DSC02951.JPG

Also..
4-3 This rule (4-3) applies to Extreme Division competitors only. The OEM glass in the windshield and / or side windows to the vehicle may be replaced with another material as long as that material approximates the location and functionality of the original equipment. (i.e. Plexiglas, bullet-proof glass, or another fully transparent material.)
Additional Guidelines:

[DrBass]

Build yourself a 16" dash from that point, and its touching the baffle!

[Broken Silence - Johnny]

You can only build 16" from the firewall of the vehicle, therefore if they built even a small dash, it would still be illegal, because the windshield frame is at least 16" away from the firewall.

[Broken Silence - Johnny]

Forget it, I am done, you guys are obviously too dense to figure it out. It is not building a pillar to a pillar that is illegal, that is legal, as long as you don't violate any other rules. Other rules will be violated when the vehicle is built, because you cannot build a 6" dash without being more than 16" from the firewall. It is not just the windshield that is illegal, although in this case it is illegal because it does not approximate the oem slant or location. Seriously, if you don't see this, you must be dumb.

[jarfunkz]

it looks like a very nice monster vehicle

[TeamSubGoPoof]

but it isn't monster, cause it isn't pretty =) its unlimited

[cp]

if you read this post http://audioforum.termpro.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=24;t=000895 , you can see a pic off an extreem car , this extreem car was bild apilar to a pilar ,
and has also a curv in the window , this car is legal because ?

[boommerextreme]

Thats the car that I though was the bug but when I saw it it was a side shot of it. So whats the difference its hanging over a good 10" on the top??

[ea1]

I can post a picture of Superior Sounds car from 2 years ago at finals. Does that mean it is legal?

I will tell you what has always happened. Cars show up and shows, and the officials dont want to disqualify them for something that is clearly illegal. This continues on, and the car makes it to finals. Then, Nobody wants to DQ somebody at finals, So it is allowed. That in NO WAY justifies it as correct. People will all agree that is wrong, but when judges actually DO require changes to the cars, everyone has a cow.

I feel sorry for the judges, their damned if they do, and damned if they dont.

I am sorry but anyone who thinks a windshield that is THAT far from the OEM location should be allowed, I have to disagree.

[170typhoon]

Originally posted by Broken Silence - Johnny:
You can only build 16" from the firewall of the vehicle, therefore if they built even a small dash, it would still be illegal, because the windshield frame is at least 16" away from the firewall. I thought the rules said you could build 6" min, 16" max from the center of the windsheild, not firewall.... If that is the rule then whoever said it is right the dash on the pass side is going to be not very far in front of the B pillar. :confused:

[170typhoon]

I should say you HAVE to have a dash, so it HAS to be 6" min, 16" max at the center of the windsheild

[astrolade]

who said the 6" 16" rule for the dash has to be
outwards why cant it be inwards......for all we know the work going into this won't even work....
everything was "illegal" at one time.

[Kim]

Originally posted by Broken Silence - Johnny:
You can only build 16" from the firewall of the vehicle, therefore if they built even a small dash, it would still be illegal, because the windshield frame is at least 16" away from the firewall. If that

[Voi Levi]

Originally posted by Broken Silence - Johnny:
You can only build 16" from the firewall of the vehicle, therefore if they built even a small dash, it would still be illegal, because the windshield frame is at least 16" away from the firewall. And Steve said earlier "If I had to rely on any competitor to help me judge an event, it would be Johnny." :rolleyes:

I really hope that Johnny won't help anybody with judging events with that kind of knowledge... :D

[NDMstang65]

Originally posted by astrolade:
who said the 6" 16" rule for the dash has to be
outwards why cant it be inwards......for all we know the work going into this won't even work....
everything was "illegal" at one time. If you put 6" of dash the other way you'll be 3" into that glass windshield...at least smile.gif

I'm with you Nate...when i saw it, i couldn't believe they even thought for a second to let it fly. :sigh:

Anyhow - How's drag racin' treatin ya?

[Broken Silence - Johnny]

EDIT: I had someone point out to me that I was in-fact correct. The rules say....

The dash must be completely solid (with no holes or perforations) and must extend front-to-back from the firewall to the trailing edge of the dash, and side-to-side from the windshield pillar on the drivers side to the windshield pillar on the passenger side.

This says that the dash must extend front-to-back from the firewall to the trailing edge. So a judge would measure the dash from the firewall to the trailing edge.

Voi Levi: You must not know the rules very well if you don't think I should be a judge. Maybe you don't like the way I see them, but I see them the RIGHT way.

[ 02-03-2005, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: Broken Silence - Johnny ]

[170typhoon]

Any word on a ruling yet?

[NOS]

Scott, I dont think we are going to get a reply very quick, as there has been some sort of miscommunication between judges. We all know it is very hard for someone to admit they were wrong, but Im pretty sure that this windshield will be deemed illegal, and the team would have to make the required changes to compete. tongue.gif

You have to weigh how its going to change our sport if its legal or illegal.

LEGAL: Everyone in the states scrambles to tear out their windshields as it looks like a big advantage in shrinking cabin volume. Vehicles appearance, to people not involved in the sport, will look like hell. Its a bad move. :(

ILLEGAL: One team has to change their work to comply with the rules, and then the words out not to design and build your windshield TOO FAR into the cabin,as you will violate other rules. WE can all take a deep breath as we (with good looking vehicles) know we dont have to wreck their exterior appearance in order to be competitive. smile.gif

Thanks for all the replies and debate, I knew I could count on you guys for help! :D

[NDMstang65]

No problem Frank - I call it how it is smile.gif

[SPL Jester]

Originally posted by 170typhoon:
I am not 100% sure on this Gabe but I do believe that they are using real glass over there. i don't care if it costs, like Dave said.. $1 million.... it's illegal ! hell .. if THAT is legal.. SOMEONE PLEASE take a few astro vans or CARAVANS.... follow the bpillar...

NOT !!

Like Nate said.. what was legal 2 years ago, is NOT LEGAL NOW !

That is the PAST. rules HAVE CHANGED ! for the better in some cases, until SOME people bend the rules and look for GREY AREAS to try and win/get loud. which is truely SAD.

Frank.. I got your back druddah !!

I'm a beer drinker... and if you think that windshield should be legal... then i want what you're on

[MIKE SPL MAN]

Originally posted by dBSteve:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by boommerextreme:
On the rule section you said that the judges have came to a decion and it is legal. rigth, that you can build A-pillar to A-pillar as long as no other rules are violated </font>[/QUOTE]This is good....

But dBSteve, you did not tell us that we had to follow the rest of the rules.

This is why the rules have to be so clear, because people are always looking for a way to go arooung them or push the limits.

dBSteve, I crossed the road the other day and got hit by a car...you said it was ok to cross when the WALK sign was lit up, but you didnt say anything about looking both ways!!! :D

This competitor should be glad his car is not complete. With a little help from the plasma cutter, this windshield can be relocated to the LEGAL position. On top of that, they can still use their $1million dollar glass in the same frame. Once it is in the LEGAL location, then they can build a LEGAL dash. Wow, that was easy to solve..the season has just begun so you have plenty of time.

[MIKA/TEAMRWD]

so what is the rule that we are violating and the rest of the cars whit a-pillar to a-pillar wind shield are not

[NDMstang65]

maybe the fact that your windshield in no way shape or form approximates the factory location?...and the fact that you can't have the minimum of 6" of dash in the "approximate factory location"...and the fact that you can't jig the sensor properly because you can't put the jig up to the factory metal on the A pillar...

you miss the first 8 pages or what?

[MIKA/TEAMRWD]

Originally posted by NDMstang65:
maybe the fact that your windshield in no way shape or form approximates the factory location?...and the fact that you can't have the minimum of 6" of dash in the "approximate factory location"...and the fact that you can't jig the sensor properly because you can't put the jig up to the factory metal on the A pillar...

you miss the first 8 pages or what? but if you can do all this is it then ok?

[NDMstang65]

Originally posted by MIKA/TEAMRWD:
but if you can do all this is it then ok? All you have to do is move the window out into where it at LEAST approximates the factory location (you can even use the same frame so your glass fits and you dont have to buy new glass, just move it out) and we'll back off. Of course it's not going to look compeletely factory, we're not even griping that it's flat. We are griping because it's obviously sunken WAY far back from the factory position (intentionally shrinking cabin volume), and in no way shape or form resembles factory location.

How many OEM windshields have you seen that are sunken in ~12-14+ inches back from the cowl where the OEM vents take air in? Also how many OEM vehicles have you seen where the windshield is behind the steering wheel? (somebody said that the steering wheel had not been moved and quoted it, ill dig around and find that if need be)

[MIKA/TEAMRWD]

actually i modfied the stearin wheel...i dont know are you allowd to do that

[MIKA/TEAMRWD]

well we just have to wait the judges to make their ruling on our car.we made it way we think its ok

[Broken Silence - Johnny]

Well unfortunately it is not your opinion on legality that matters, it is the judges opinion.

[MIKA/TEAMRWD]

like i said we just have to wait THEIR opinion.

[NDMstang65]

Yep...

[170typhoon]

I would think that it would be hard to measure from the firewall.... I built my dash from the center of my NEW windsheild... how would you measure from the firewall??? Ive never seen a judge measure from the firewall :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Rip Rock]

Originally posted by 170typhoon:
I would think that it would be hard to measure from the firewall.... I built my dash from the center of my NEW windsheild... how would you measure from the firewall??? Ive never seen a judge measure from the firewall :confused: :confused: :confused: Me either!

It's measured from the center of the Window. The judges measured our dash from the center of the window at finals..

Good thing we followed the OEM Cureve and OEM slant on our new vehical! :D

[boommerextreme]

Im glad too. But it dose say form the center of the windshield!

[Crazy dB Dave]

Ya, it says from the window. Now you see why window placement is so important. smile.gif

[DrBass]

Yeah, so back to what I said again! ;)

You could build it 16" and it would touch the baffle!

[boommerextreme]

I never had a disagreement with that. My windshield is flat too on my new car that im building. But it fits the roofline. and the bottom in only inset adout 3" from its orignal location.

[ 02-03-2005, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: boommerextreme ]

[170typhoon]

Originally posted by DrBass:
Yeah, so back to what I said again! ;)

You could build it 16" and it would touch the baffle! Great minds think alike smile.gif

[boommerextreme]

Isnt that what we all want??

[MIKA/TEAMRWD]

Originally posted by DrBass:
Yeah, so back to what I said again! ;)

You could build it 16" and it would touch the baffle! actually no...

[DrBass]

Ok, assuming it was a "traditional" baffle, and if it didn't get that far, it would be VERY close!

[MIKA/TEAMRWD]

what does mean very clouse? :confused:

[DrBass]

It means if the baffle was in the "usual/old" position, it may not touch it, but it almost would.

[MIKA/TEAMRWD]

you have pmail please answer..

[170typhoon]

any updates?

[Voi Levi]

Originally posted by Broken Silence - Johnny:
Voi Levi: You must not know the rules very well if you don't think I should be a judge. Maybe you don't like the way I see them, but I see them the RIGHT way. Let's say that I have done my homeworks regarding the rules ;)

I'm very familiar with the definition of the dash that you gave, but it says elsewhere on the rules that the dash must be between 6" and 16" from the center of the front window, not from the firewall...

I think that you should see the rules like they are written, because that's how they are followed by the comptetitors and judges.

[Broken Silence - Johnny]

I do see them how they are written, and it says in the rules that the dash is bounded by the firewall in front, which means you would measure it from the firewall.

[Voi Levi]

Johnny:

"The minimum depth of the dash at the center of the vehicle shall be 6 inches (15.24 cm) when measured from the edge of the dash to the windshield . The maximum depth shall be 16 inches (40.64 cm)"

If you still want to believe, that depth of the dash should be measured from the firewall, it's your shame.

I'm pleased that the real judges can still read and they won't measure the depth from the firewall...

[NDMstang65]

Right..make it 16" from the windshield where it sit's and it would be about ~4" from the B pillar

If that flies there's gonna be alot of pissed off people in extreme smile.gif

[CN_Sounds]

?

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/5/web/665000-665999/665897_167_full.jpg

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/5/web/665000-665999/665897_168_full.jpg

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/5/web/665000-665999/665897_169_full.jpg

[Team RWD/Jarkko]

Originally posted by NDMstang65:
Right..make it 16" from the windshield where it sit's and it would be about ~4" from the B pillar

If that flies there's gonna be alot of pissed off people in extreme smile.gif There is a car (UAZ) that has so short doors that that will hapen even if you build maximum dash from oem firewall... so if someone builds extreme from that car, it should be deemed illegal, because you and someone else don't like it?

[NDMstang65]

I've got a car sitting in my garage that has a dash that's factory 2" and suicide doors..and is 2/3 the size of a VW Beetle...what's your point? (Subaru 360 for those who are wanting to know) Could i build it? Sure i could. Am i going to? No. Those are not the cars in question now. The car in question is the one in this thread with the windsheild balantly sunken into the cabin to shrink volume. I dont care if you built a power wheels car...it doesnt matter, that would be dealt with if the situation arrose.

The car in question is what we have to worry about now, not the one in the future. Build away for all i care smile.gif go for it! When you are put in monster class...it's not going to be my problem. I'll just worry about our vehicle and not yours. Hopefully the judges will rule on this and make it final.

The windshield in the car in this thread is clearly intentionally building it to shrink the cabin. No ifs ands or buts about it.

If the car makes it to the states like it is pictured now i'll put money on the fact that yall have built an awesome monster class car!!!

[Team RWD/Jarkko]

Originally posted by NDMstang65:
I've got a car sitting in my garage that has a dash that's factory 2" and suicide doors..and is 2/3 the size of a VW Beetle...what's your point? (Subaru 360 for those who are wanting to know) Could i build it? Sure i could. Am i going to? No. Those are not the cars in question now. The car in question is the one in this thread with the windsheild balantly sunken into the cabin to shrink volume. I dont care if you built a power wheels car...it doesnt matter, that would be dealt with if the situation arrose.

The car in question is what we have to worry about now, not the one in the future. Build away for all i care smile.gif go for it! When you are put in monster class...it's not going to be my problem. I'll just worry about our vehicle and not yours. Hopefully the judges will rule on this and make it final.

The windshield in the car in this thread is clearly intentionally building it to shrink the cabin. No ifs ands or buts about it.

If the car makes it to the states like it is pictured now i'll put money on the fact that yall have built an awesome monster class car!!! Who ever said were not going to change it? Now question at hand was where dash should measured at...

[Broken Silence - Johnny]

Originally posted by Voi Levi:
Johnny:

"The minimum depth of the dash at the center of the vehicle shall be 6 inches (15.24 cm) when measured from the edge of the dash to the windshield . The maximum depth shall be 16 inches (40.64 cm)"

If you still want to believe, that depth of the dash should be measured from the firewall, it's your shame.

I'm pleased that the real judges can still read and they won't measure the depth from the firewall... You say that like I'm not a real judge :eek:

There are conflicting views in the rules, one way says measure from the firewall, other says from the base of the windshield. I was trying to bring that to everyone's attention.

[NDMstang65]

Originally posted by Team RWD/Jarkko:
Who ever said were not going to change it? Now question at hand was where dash should measured at... When the windshield is moved it'd be obvious..wouldn't it? Or do you sit in the back seat of your daily driver and attempt to touch the pedals and drive it and use the steering wheel?

[boommerextreme]

Put you windshield closer to the stock location, then measure 6" to 16" out from the windshield.

[TRENDSETTER]

I don't see how 2 people could sit in the car in the normal seated position with the dash in place where it is now and stay in front of the b pillar???

[DrBass]

Yeah, but the normal seating position thing was tossed out of the rulebook last year...

[Rip Rock]

Johnny, good point about where you measure from, but I have not yet seen a judge measure from the firewall before in my life...Our new vehical has 13" from the firewall to the STOCK window. So what you are saying, that we can only build a 3" dash(from window to edge of dash) to get 16" from the firewall? so a 13" dash would give us 0" from the window. You know what i'm saying?