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I know how alot of y'all feel about caps, but I'm not building a competetion system. All I'm doing is a street beat system in a car that get's driven daily. I've got the dreaded dimming headlights when the bass hits. I'm kind of thinking a cap would cure this problem. Any opinions that won't cost an arm and a leg. Will a cap work for me ??
-------------------- If it's tourist season, why can't I shoot the buggers ??? 2000 Oldsmobile Alero GLS coupe. Clarion DXZ945MP, Clarion SIR-CL2 SIRIUS Satellite Tuner, Clarion DCZ625 CD Changer, Phoenix Gold Octane R5.0:4, Infinity Kappa 462.7cfp plates in the doors and Infinity Kappa 693.7i's in the rear deck , MMATS D200hc, Single 12" TREO Engineering SSX in a slot port box. Posts: 384 | From: Omaha, Ne. as of 5/1/06 | Registered: May 2004
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Just buy an optima yellow top and put it in your trunk. It will do more than a cap and cost around the same.
Posts: 11 | From: Milwaukee, WI | Registered: Feb 2006
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true a cap is not the best but what a cap dose is make a continuous current this makes your voltage regalator steady, with no cap the voltage regulator will not keep up with current peaks. caps are to expensive it's better just to buy a battery
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So how much $$ would I be looking at too do a battery ?? All hook ups, ...ect.
-------------------- If it's tourist season, why can't I shoot the buggers ??? 2000 Oldsmobile Alero GLS coupe. Clarion DXZ945MP, Clarion SIR-CL2 SIRIUS Satellite Tuner, Clarion DCZ625 CD Changer, Phoenix Gold Octane R5.0:4, Infinity Kappa 462.7cfp plates in the doors and Infinity Kappa 693.7i's in the rear deck , MMATS D200hc, Single 12" TREO Engineering SSX in a slot port box. Posts: 384 | From: Omaha, Ne. as of 5/1/06 | Registered: May 2004
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I don't know, probley Interstate or something like that.
-------------------- If it's tourist season, why can't I shoot the buggers ??? 2000 Oldsmobile Alero GLS coupe. Clarion DXZ945MP, Clarion SIR-CL2 SIRIUS Satellite Tuner, Clarion DCZ625 CD Changer, Phoenix Gold Octane R5.0:4, Infinity Kappa 462.7cfp plates in the doors and Infinity Kappa 693.7i's in the rear deck , MMATS D200hc, Single 12" TREO Engineering SSX in a slot port box. Posts: 384 | From: Omaha, Ne. as of 5/1/06 | Registered: May 2004
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if you were to use a cap, you would need about 25 farads for the setup listed in your sig.
if you were to buy a cap, i suggest ebay. unless you know someone who can get them for you at dealer cost. ebay prices are dam near dealer cost. sometimes cheaper.
you would be amazed at how much benefit a cap is when used correctly. and it is an important part of a truely balanced power supply.
altenator/good battery up front/proper wiring/proper size cap.
a cap performs a different function from a battery. but because they both store energy, people often compare the two and the cap loses 90% of the time because of price or the amount of current comparison.
a cap is needed to help your altenator do its job. a capacitor is 100x faster than a battery in discharge. so when your bass hits, the cap delivers its power first and keeps voltage higher until your altenators' regulator catches up. if your power demand is greater than your altenator, then the battery is the last thing to kick in and pick up the slack below 13vdc.
so you see, that is why i say a cap is an IMPORTANT PART of a BALANCED POWER SUPPLY. True, i would buy the optima first. but i would put that optima up front where that old battery used to be. then, i would upgrade all of my wiring between the the alt to the battery, battery to chassis, battery to the cap in the back, and cap directly to the amps. this is a balanced power supply.
-------------------- Team Livewire Posts: 2199 | From: columbus, ohio | Registered: Mar 2001
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Balanced power supply? I have 4 Caterpillar 8 D's and 1 group 31 cat up front for a total of 7000 cca's running 4 Pioneer spl 5000's with an upgrade of 6 more 8D's and a 550 amp alternator coming very soon along for 2 big Crowns. So how will a cap help me achieve balanced power
-------------------- Team Bass Coat
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posted
Way too much money for a daily driver. I think I'll get a 3 Farad cap off Ebay for a couple hundred bucks, and put it inline right infront of the MMATS amp.
-------------------- If it's tourist season, why can't I shoot the buggers ??? 2000 Oldsmobile Alero GLS coupe. Clarion DXZ945MP, Clarion SIR-CL2 SIRIUS Satellite Tuner, Clarion DCZ625 CD Changer, Phoenix Gold Octane R5.0:4, Infinity Kappa 462.7cfp plates in the doors and Infinity Kappa 693.7i's in the rear deck , MMATS D200hc, Single 12" TREO Engineering SSX in a slot port box. Posts: 384 | From: Omaha, Ne. as of 5/1/06 | Registered: May 2004
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-------------------- If it's tourist season, why can't I shoot the buggers ??? 2000 Oldsmobile Alero GLS coupe. Clarion DXZ945MP, Clarion SIR-CL2 SIRIUS Satellite Tuner, Clarion DCZ625 CD Changer, Phoenix Gold Octane R5.0:4, Infinity Kappa 462.7cfp plates in the doors and Infinity Kappa 693.7i's in the rear deck , MMATS D200hc, Single 12" TREO Engineering SSX in a slot port box. Posts: 384 | From: Omaha, Ne. as of 5/1/06 | Registered: May 2004
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dude, buying a cap is a mistake. Go back over Geo-X's post about a balanced power system. When the cap is out of juice, and your alt can't keep up, that is when it's all up to your battery to supply the power... one problem with that. When you are on battery power, that is when your lights seem "dim" because they are on 12-13 volts instead of the 13.5-14.5 that your alt is normally giving them. When the cap is empty, it then becomes another load, or drain on the electrical system, worse than that, it's a load that's going to get satisfied or filled before your amps see any additional power. 9 times out of 10, if your power supply system is week, a cap is actually going to make it worse. If you want to make your lights stop dimming, put the cap near your headlights But that isn't going to do Sh!t for your amps or your SQ.
even for a daily driver, either spend some money and upgrade your alternator, which would be the best option. If you don't want to spend the money for an upgraded alternator, then spend the money and get a really good battery for up front under your hood. Think either Group 31 Optima Yellowtop or a Hawker Odyssey (sp) 1700 or better. My pick would be the Hawker. And if you don't want to spend the money on the alt or the battery, your third option is the Big 3.
The Big 3 is upgrading your electrical wiring, which believe it or not, will make a huge difference in your electrical system's performance and may just be enough to fix the dimming problem your having. I don't know what ohm load you have that nice D200hc wired at, but it's probably pulling a good bit of current. The big 3 involves upgrading or replacing the charging wire that goes from your Alt to your battery, The ground wire that goes from your battery to your chassis, and the grounding strap that goes from your engine to your chassis. Everyone with a shred of sense is going to recommend 0 gauge wire.
I recommend strongly against using welding wire for the upgrade, although I do recommend going to either a welding supply shop or an electrical supply shop to get 0 gauge solid copper connectors. I recommend buying good grade meaning 4000 strand count or higher (knuconceptz on ebay is +5100 count)0 gauge car audio wire. You can either use an 6 sided hex crimp to fasten your connectors, or do what I do and use a propane torch and solder the connector on that way. The hex crimp done correctly is great. I think the torch and solder is better. Other's may recommend the hammer crimper, which is okay, but not as good as a hex crimp and definitely not as good as a torch and solder.
And since this is already a novel, i also recommend grounding the battery on each side of the chassis and grounding the engine in two different spots on the chassis. I also run power AND ground directly from my battery to my amp. You could also keep the battery under the hood and add a second battery in the back near or next to the amp, that would also be superior to a cap, even a cheap walmart everstart battery is going to run you only 60 bucks and outperform a cap. For the price of a single cap, you can probably buy two of the everstarts, and if you don't like them, keep your reciept and return them to walmart.
Anyway, that's my .02 cents. Anyone that's been on the forum a while and gotten into competition is going to tell you pretty much the same thing.
Figure the Big 3 is going to run 50-60 bucks, a new good battery is 150-200 bucks, and a good alt is going to be 200-500 depending on how much output and whether it's stock or custom. PM me if you have any further questions.
-------------------- Not just an another Internet Thug. I am also a Corporate Thug. Posts: 302 | From: Richmond, VA | Registered: Apr 2004
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They sell 12 farad caps all the time for $175 at the local shop in my area. I am not at all trying to make a sales pitch, but I am saying the deals are out there. You just gotta look for them.
Nphocus gave good advice and we seem to agree on everything else except the cap. He says they will run dry quickly and become a load on your altenator. If you use a 3 farad cap with a d200hc, it is going to run dry very quickly and will seem to not be of much help. As for the load it presents to the altenator, it is a load, but adding an extra battery is a far greater load because of the difference in internal resistance between a batt and a cap. To put it in perspective, adding a cap to your system is as much load as adding 10 extra pounds to your benchpress bar when you already have 100 pounds on it. Its already an easy load, adding the cap will not make it unbearable at all, and its pros outweigh its cons.
I used to think the same as the majority of people do. Caps are a nice novelty with not much benefit at all. Just a waste of money overall. And then about a year ago, I started experimenting with them in my down time at work. I found out that a good ratio to work with is about 1 farad per 100 watts. Not the old rule of thumb (1 farad per 1000 watts, I call this the marketing ratio). At this ratio, caps serve a hugh benefit and take much longer to run dry. This is a great ratio for street beating. This is why I recommended 25 farads in the original post. A d200hc is good for about 1500 watts. And I am guessing his highs amp is good for 500. So, 2000 watts requires 20 farads. But I never seen a 20 farad cap, but I have seen 25.
Its good to remember that a cap "stiffens" the voltage it is charged to. So if your alt is running at 14.4, then that is where your caps power is aswell. It doesn't wait untill 12-13 volts to start helping out.
-------------------- Team Livewire Posts: 2199 | From: columbus, ohio | Registered: Mar 2001
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I'm not going too spend money on a alt, batteries, wiring, ...ect. If a cap would work, fine, if not, screw it, I'll just have dimming head lights. I don't mind a couple hundred bucks, but I'm not going any more.
-------------------- If it's tourist season, why can't I shoot the buggers ??? 2000 Oldsmobile Alero GLS coupe. Clarion DXZ945MP, Clarion SIR-CL2 SIRIUS Satellite Tuner, Clarion DCZ625 CD Changer, Phoenix Gold Octane R5.0:4, Infinity Kappa 462.7cfp plates in the doors and Infinity Kappa 693.7i's in the rear deck , MMATS D200hc, Single 12" TREO Engineering SSX in a slot port box. Posts: 384 | From: Omaha, Ne. as of 5/1/06 | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Geo-X: They sell 12 farad caps all the time for $175 at the local shop in my area. I am not at all trying to make a sales pitch, but I am saying the deals are out there. You just gotta look for them.
Nphocus gave good advice and we seem to agree on everything else except the cap. He says they will run dry quickly and become a load on your altenator. If you use a 3 farad cap with a d200hc, it is going to run dry very quickly and will seem to not be of much help. As for the load it presents to the altenator, it is a load, but adding an extra battery is a far greater load because of the difference in internal resistance between a batt and a cap. To put it in perspective, adding a cap to your system is as much load as adding 10 extra pounds to your benchpress bar when you already have 100 pounds on it. Its already an easy load, adding the cap will not make it unbearable at all, and its pros outweigh its cons.
I used to think the same as the majority of people do. Caps are a nice novelty with not much benefit at all. Just a waste of money overall. And then about a year ago, I started experimenting with them in my down time at work. I found out that a good ratio to work with is about 1 farad per 100 watts. Not the old rule of thumb (1 farad per 1000 watts, I call this the marketing ratio). At this ratio, caps serve a hugh benefit and take much longer to run dry. This is a great ratio for street beating. This is why I recommended 25 farads in the original post. A d200hc is good for about 1500 watts. And I am guessing his highs amp is good for 500. So, 2000 watts requires 20 farads. But I never seen a 20 farad cap, but I have seen 25.
Its good to remember that a cap "stiffens" the voltage it is charged to. So if your alt is running at 14.4, then that is where your caps power is aswell. It doesn't wait untill 12-13 volts to start helping out.
You know, I started to read your post, and I was thinking moron... no fuggin clue... then I kept reading and I think your on point. 1 farad to 100 watts is probably a very good ratio vs what you referred to as a marketing ratio. The only problem is the expense of the capacitors. I would recommend an alumapro cap which is available in sizes up to 50 farads. But they are prohibitively expensive.
If your going to spend a hundred bucks, spend it on 0 gauge wire and upgrading your grounds. Trust me on this. Spending 130.00 on a little cap is a waste. The one thing GeoX pointed out is that you need to have the rest of the power supply system up to par in order for that additional capacitance not to cripple your system.
Then again, you may be just another ignorant noob that doesn't know or appreciate the Real when it's being shown to them. If you look at any DBdrag world record vehicle, be it street or extreme, they all have big alts, and lotsa batteries. Not 2,000 farads of caps. I run about 7000 watts in my daily driver, so I would need 70 farads of capacitance. For the price of 70f in caps, I could buy a pair of 300 amp alts and a pair of hawker 2150s and be in much much better shape electrically.
-------------------- Not just an another Internet Thug. I am also a Corporate Thug. Posts: 302 | From: Richmond, VA | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by z3pr: I'm not going too spend money on a alt, batteries, wiring, ...ect. If a cap would work, fine, if not, screw it, I'll just have dimming head lights. I don't mind a couple hundred bucks, but I'm not going any more.
I'm thinking your a fuggin tard, and here's why. According to the stuff in your signature, you have some nice, good sh!t up in your ride. Nice deck, nice components and nice amps. The problem is your skimping on the backbone that makes it possible for all of that stuff to work.
Electricity.
That stuff is key. You need to make it as easy/efficient as possible to let that stuff move around, and you do that with copper wire. Lotsa copper wires. I was like you last season. I bought a crx, a decent 15, and a big fuggin amp. And then I stuck all of that on a stock 60 amp honda alt a G31 interstate battery and about 60 feet of 00 gauge welding wire. The end result was 143 at the kicks on the new TL. If I was running anyplace other than MECA Amateur in Virginia, I would have gotten my ass handed to me. But I listened and learned. Welding wire sucks. 5300 strand wire this season. 60 amp alts suck. 300 amp Iraggi alt this season. Decent subs suck. CN Cactus Sounds w/4" voicecoil this season, soon to be using an Armored Coil (hate me mother bitches - cuz it will never blow). AB amps suck for making power through a fuse. All Class D this season.
Live and Learn, every damn day. PPL here aren't interested in lying to you or steering you wrong. For the most part everyone is here to help out, share advice and experiences (cept Death By Bass, see definition of ass clown). Listen to them and learn from them.
-------------------- Not just an another Internet Thug. I am also a Corporate Thug. Posts: 302 | From: Richmond, VA | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by z3pr: I'm not going too spend money on a alt, batteries, wiring, ...ect. If a cap would work, fine, if not, screw it, I'll just have dimming head lights. I don't mind a couple hundred bucks, but I'm not going any more.
I'm thinking your a fuggin tard, and here's why. According to the stuff in your signature, you have some nice, good sh!t up in your ride. Nice deck, nice components and nice amps. The problem is your skimping on the backbone that makes it possible for all of that stuff to work.
Electricity.
That stuff is key. You need to make it as easy/efficient as possible to let that stuff move around, and you do that with copper wire. Lotsa copper wires. I was like you last season. I bought a crx, a decent 15, and a big fuggin amp. And then I stuck all of that on a stock 60 amp honda alt a G31 interstate battery and about 60 feet of 00 gauge welding wire. The end result was 143 at the kicks on the new TL. If I was running anyplace other than MECA Amateur in Virginia, I would have gotten my ass handed to me. But I listened and learned. Welding wire sucks. 5300 strand wire this season. 60 amp alts suck. 300 amp Iraggi alt this season. Decent subs suck. CN Cactus Sounds w/4" voicecoil this season, soon to be using an Armored Coil (hate me mother bitches - cuz it will never blow). AB amps suck for making power through a fuse. All Class D this season.
Live and Learn, every damn day. PPL here aren't interested in lying to you or steering you wrong. For the most part everyone is here to help out, share advice and experiences (cept Death By Bass, see definition of ass clown). Listen to them and learn from them.
Just so you know, I already have a 2-gauge power wire to the 4-channel amp, and a 0-gauge power wire to the MMATS amp. Now before you get your panties in a wad, keep in mind I do not compete. It's only for something too liston too going down the road. I see no reason to have a larger alt. installed when I hardly ever drive the car after dark. We're talking about once every 2 or 3 months. So it really isn't a big issue. If a cap would have fixed the dimming headlights, fine, I would spend a couple hundred buck. But if it's not the case, and it sounds like it's not, then it's not a big enough issue to me too upgrade the Alt, add a couple yellow top batteries (1) under the hood, (2) and a second one in the trunk. I've got a easier thing I can do at night, turn down the stereo, and shut off the bass. (Note; the MMATS amp is on a switch so I can shut the bass down with a quickness if needed.) I think your comment "I'm thinking your a fuggin tard" was uncalled for and shows me just what kind of person you are. I'm assuming you're young with that attiutude. Do you understand the concept of a daily driver ??? Did it ever dawn on you that by having a stock alt I can stop at any parts store and get another one if the one I have craps out ?? You do know that most people relie on thier cars too get them to and from work, that they can't afford too let th car sit waiting for a part too come in. My Alero is 100% factory original except for the stereo system just for that reason.
[ 03-17-2006, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: z3pr ]
-------------------- If it's tourist season, why can't I shoot the buggers ??? 2000 Oldsmobile Alero GLS coupe. Clarion DXZ945MP, Clarion SIR-CL2 SIRIUS Satellite Tuner, Clarion DCZ625 CD Changer, Phoenix Gold Octane R5.0:4, Infinity Kappa 462.7cfp plates in the doors and Infinity Kappa 693.7i's in the rear deck , MMATS D200hc, Single 12" TREO Engineering SSX in a slot port box. Posts: 384 | From: Omaha, Ne. as of 5/1/06 | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by kickeraccent: a cap will not fix the dimming .use a battery in place of the cap.. cheaper and way better. if your goin to spend 200 on a cap spend 150 for a nsb-90 battery. my car is a daily driver im a 15 year old student so you know i cruse as much as i can.the caps did not help me the battery in place of cap did . and i still have my crappy 90 amp alternator.this is just my experence. im a new be but i learned my lesson with the caps ..thanks to all the people here they r great some times they make you feel like a azz but in the long run they all want to help. i think they get tired of us newbes askin lame questions .then goin against there advice..
Harlan, Ia huh ??? I hate too admitt it, but I grew up in Avoca. Don't tell anyone, cause I will be forced too hang my head in shame, LOL. But I do know just alittle bit about cars. (Note; I build high preformance cars.) So if I was going too go with a battery, I'd have too buy 2 matching batteries. One for in the trunk, and the other one for under the hood. Use a 0-gauge power cable too conect them. I'm not that young myself, I'll be 40 this summer. Yeah, I've been around cars quite a while. I've never used a cap before, so don't have much experence with them, but I'm not cluess about cars, or car stereo systems, LOL. I'm leaving the Alero stock except for the stereo system. Something I learned a long time ago is too keep your daily driver stock so you can get replacement parts at your local parts store, so you're not waiting a week or more for mail order parts.
-------------------- If it's tourist season, why can't I shoot the buggers ??? 2000 Oldsmobile Alero GLS coupe. Clarion DXZ945MP, Clarion SIR-CL2 SIRIUS Satellite Tuner, Clarion DCZ625 CD Changer, Phoenix Gold Octane R5.0:4, Infinity Kappa 462.7cfp plates in the doors and Infinity Kappa 693.7i's in the rear deck , MMATS D200hc, Single 12" TREO Engineering SSX in a slot port box.
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