posted
The quad issue is a pretty deep one. You see we sell our quads daily and some of our dealers even stock these woofers. Honestly this is why our quad is a "normal" quad not some monster freak of nature built two minutes before the run. The ban of these non production un sellable non useable quads would make sense. I personally have used one of our quads for a daily driver and hammered on it for over a month this make my quad sellable. Most of these monster quads you cannot do this with, so why not ban them?, Or I agree we should limit the number of amps allowed. This entire thing seems that if we ban the quand and do not limit the number of amps then one company will shine and I am not naming any names but it seems kinda weird to me. All of the other manufactures will now have to build strapable amps and reconfigure their duels and then look we spend more money to fund the competiton lifestyle, any our whole already devolped line becomes different. I say GO WITH THE AMP LIMIT or ban the monster unavaliable quads
-------------------- Erik Harbour Technical Director Team Coordinator Marketing Director MA Audio, Visonik, Clif Designs Posts: 61 | From: Huntington Beach, CA. | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
And one other idea.......and this is just an idea........
I say if a ban on quads is indeed what is wanted, then do it like this maybe....If your Quad is shown at CES in your booth as an inventory item then it can be used if not then it is banned from use. If a manufacture shows the woofer in their booth at CES then this generally means it is avaliable to all of their dealers and customers of those dealers.
just an idea to think about....
-------------------- Erik Harbour Technical Director Team Coordinator Marketing Director MA Audio, Visonik, Clif Designs Posts: 61 | From: Huntington Beach, CA. | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:Originally posted by MEMPHIS FORCE: And one other idea.......and this is just an idea........
I say if a ban on quads is indeed what is wanted, then do it like this maybe....If your Quad is shown at CES in your booth as an inventory item then it can be used if not then it is banned from use. If a manufacture shows the woofer in their booth at CES then this generally means it is avaliable to all of their dealers and customers of those dealers.
just an idea to think about....
Good idea on new product, but that doesnt help any on older models.
-------------------- Bobby Riley Art's Sound Chamber
Fifteen time SPL World Champions-----26 SPL World Records DB Drag == IASCA == USACi == MECA Posts: 3484 | From: Retirement Village in Branson Missouri. | Registered: May 1999
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I think if there is going to be a bann on quads...that is should come with a one season warning......let them in for '04 and bann them from '05 for SS.......but i would say to still alow them in EX class till '06.....and if quads are banned we will need to do something about amp power per sub...not per coil....
-------------------- Team TAZM Team Gates Exotic Dreamz Car Club Team Cartunes
posted
I am just wondering what the extreme class is for. Are the extreme cars not the AA/Fulers of dB Drags. Or are we just going to have funny looking street cars. I for one like quad coils and so do alot of other competitors. Not everyone can have a Nitro burning car at the drag strip but what happens when one pulls up to the line. Everyone is looking and waiting to see what they can do. If we keep taking the high power away from extreme everyone will be saying 'oh another street car with thick windows'. I really don't see how this is going to help anything. Keep them out of street and maybe SS but not extreme.
-------------------- Hmmmm.... You said something broke. Why don't you just -- Shut up and Win! Posts: 53 | From: Murray, UT, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
You can't relate DB Drag to NHRA, the top dogs in drag racing have huge sponsors. DB Drag racers have audio manufacturers. Until Home Depot or General Mills start sponsoring DB Drag teams the audio manufacturers that do sponsor competitors will continue to dictate what is acceptable. All sponsors set budgets to work within and when money is tight sponsorship is a quick way to tighten the belt. So, if the main players in DB Drag don't want to manufacture quads then we won't have quads. This is a pretty simple concept to understand.
From whatI hear those Mojo's will be strappable next season, good thing! Posts: 1674 | From: Michigan | Registered: Nov 2002
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You have to realize what the real issue is here....
A quad is 10x more marketable than these big monster amps that are out. I should know. I sell them all the time and have even run many a quad coil woofer daily at one time or another.
The quad ban is politics. it is a poor decision upon the part of wayne.
You see, i have yet to actually here from one manufacturer who does not want to make quads, contrary to waynes supposed argument.
Keep making your quads. If db drag doesnt want em, you still have plenty of other busines out there with iasca, usac, slap, nspl, meca, etc....
quote:Originally posted by JeremyD: i have yet to actually here from one manufacturer who does not want to make quads, contrary to waynes supposed argument.
-Chris McSweyn- Member Member # 3302
Rate Member posted 11-26-2003 10:34 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I guess I may as well reply to this post... I make it no secret that I am against quad coil woofers. These woofers have no real world value and are helping to reduce the amount of competitors in each class. Think about the pros and cons to quads:
Pro's: 1. More power per woofer = higher scores easily
Con's: 1. Twice as many amps needed. 2. Twice as many batteries needed 3. Increased weight as a result of the amps and batteries = Higher towing costs, more flats, broken trailers and possible accidents, high liabilities of towing 10,000+LB vehicles across the country. 4. If I have to give 80 1000D's or 40 2000D's up per competitor how do I help out others? 5. Most manufacturers hate building these since they don't sell them to the general public.
People must realize that this is the best for the sport in the long run. If you have quads now there are some options:
1. Sell half of your amps (if you actually bought them) 2. Keep your extra amps for spare's 3. Move up a class into one that is not as crowded thus giving you a better chance to place higher. 4. Recone your woofers to duals if possible (as DD's are)
Look at the number of competitors in each class, 5-8 and above were fairly empty.
As someone said earlier: the big amp arguement doesn't hold water because with quads you will just need twice as many big amps!
As far as off the shelf equipment goes, At Crossfire we pride ourselves in the fact that any equipment used in competition is the same equipment found at any Crossfire dealer across the country.
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-------------------- Bobby Riley Art's Sound Chamber
Fifteen time SPL World Champions-----26 SPL World Records DB Drag == IASCA == USACi == MECA Posts: 3484 | From: Retirement Village in Branson Missouri. | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I think the CES this is a great idea. But what about the manufactures that sell equipment so HIGH that no consumer or competitor can afford because they make them that expensive for there team to have in there vehicle only?
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Team Powermasters Team Ascendant Audio Team Cactus Sound
quote:Originally posted by JeremyD: i have yet to actually here from one manufacturer who does not want to make quads, contrary to waynes supposed argument.
-Chris McSweyn- Member Member # 3302
Rate Member posted 11-26-2003 10:34 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I guess I may as well reply to this post... I make it no secret that I am against quad coil woofers. These woofers have no real world value and are helping to reduce the amount of competitors in each class. Think about the pros and cons to quads:
Pro's: 1. More power per woofer = higher scores easily
Con's: 1. Twice as many amps needed. 2. Twice as many batteries needed 3. Increased weight as a result of the amps and batteries = Higher towing costs, more flats, broken trailers and possible accidents, high liabilities of towing 10,000+LB vehicles across the country. 4. If I have to give 80 1000D's or 40 2000D's up per competitor how do I help out others? 5. Most manufacturers hate building these since they don't sell them to the general public.
People must realize that this is the best for the sport in the long run. If you have quads now there are some options:
1. Sell half of your amps (if you actually bought them) 2. Keep your extra amps for spare's 3. Move up a class into one that is not as crowded thus giving you a better chance to place higher. 4. Recone your woofers to duals if possible (as DD's are)
Look at the number of competitors in each class, 5-8 and above were fairly empty.
As someone said earlier: the big amp arguement doesn't hold water because with quads you will just need twice as many big amps!
As far as off the shelf equipment goes, At Crossfire we pride ourselves in the fact that any equipment used in competition is the same equipment found at any Crossfire dealer across the country.
--------------------
Congratulations!!!!
You were able to name ONE manufacturer.....
I guess it goes to show once again how this is not for the betterment of the sport, but for the betterment of a select few manufacturers....
posted
These are the things that need addressing: Wayne's concerns were (since he's the one writing the rulebook )
1) Average enthusiasts with real budgets and no sponsorships need a place to compete. Competition needs to shift, becoming more of a function of knowledge and execution, and less of how much money you have and who you know.
2) Competitors should be using standard, off-the-shelf retail products.
3) There should not be loopholes in the rules that result in the compromising of goals 1 and 2.
Unfortunately, "banning quad coil subs" does not have any direct correlation to how much money enthusiasts spend. In fact, the argument has been made that competitors (who aren't going to settle for just running less power) are going to buy more expensive single-amp setups to replace their smaller multi amps, to total the same power. That's simply ONE illustration of why this rule is misguided - if the motivations Wayne listed are truly his justification.
Rules need to be written to directly address the concerns. If you do that, you inherently eliminate loopholes. A rule that says "16v batteries are banned" has inherent loopholes. A rule that says "you can only use 12v batteries" has no loopholes. (just as an example)
If keeping it affordible for entry level enthusiasts is the concern... Write a rule that limits how much money is spent (or classes), if that is truly the goal. Base it on MSRP, to level the playing field. ...and guess what.. this incents manufacturers to make less expensive high power amplifiers.. which benefits more than just competitors.
If using standard, off-the-shelf products is desirable, then acutally using quad coil subs (to allow the use of multiple more "realistic" sized amps) MAKES sense.
If using standard products is a concern though... Create power classes. But not in the way of the past... using the 4 ohm power rating (that simply incented manufacturers to make more expensive, non-standard, "cheater amps")... Create classes based on main fuses, or an actual current measurement during competition. Something that actually ties to how much power the person is TRULY running.
This rewards people for doing more with less power, for running smaller amps rather than bigger. ...and guess what... this incents manufacturers to build more efficient amps... which benefits more than competitors...
Take note of the side benefits of both of these: ...manufacturers are incented to build less expensive products... ...manufacterers are incented to build more efficient amps... They benefit the car audio industry, and the car audio marketplace, as a whole.
That's what can happen if you try to do it RIGHT.
-------------------- -Chris E Better Audio VP/R&D Visit Car Audio Forum and Car Audio Talk for a new spin... Posts: 71 | From: Buffalo, NY | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
if you read Wayne's post titled "our future," he wants to get more people, shops, and audio manufacturers back into DB Drag.
Bring the "cost to be competitive" down and more people can compete. Eliminating quads does not do this. It will only make the hard core competitors pay more for monster amps, like the JBL6000.
A true "leveler" to the playing field would be to impose a battery limit in SS. Battery limits in the street class (along with the car-off rule) have been wonderful in this past street season. There is only so much power that a limitied number of batteries can power!!!
Then, in Extreme.....Extreme should truly be EXTREME. Don't put battery, amp, or coil limits on extreme. Let them build the loudest vehicles posssible. I would like to see Extreme become a true manufacturers class. Heavily sponsored or Factory produced vehicles with corporate logo paint jobs. (Imagine seeing Extreme vehicles built with the same detail levles as Alpine's Demo Civic or Rockford's Demo Exterra, etc.) There should only be 2 extreme classes. Cars and trucks/vans. That's it. Kind of like the NHRA's top classes - TF Funny Car and TF Dragster.
-------------------- Andrew Harper
2002 STREET 3-4 6th Place World Finals 2003 Street B 2nd Place Spring Break Nationals Posts: 1702 | From: Vero Beach, FL | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I am so sick of hearing all this bitching, Everyone says that the purpose for the Quad bans and other equipment restrictions are to bring in the new competitors and the average "JOE". Well if you want to go screwing around with established classes and equipment How about do it in the classes that are most likely to be attractive to the new competitors,Can you all say STREET! The reason the new guy can't compete is because the people in those classes are Seasoned competitors and or pros, If you could get those guys out of the street classes Guesswhat You have a place for the new competitors to play!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How much damn sense does it take to reason this one out, I mean come on .. In closing, Stop screwing with the serious competitors that actually make this sport what it is, Extreme. And make the beginner classes be just that, For Beginners....
-------------------- Gorman Cassidy aka GMAN 1999 Iasca Idbl Points Champion 2000 DB Drag FinalsSS9+ 10th Place 2001 DB Drag FinalsSS5-8 9th place 2002 DB Drag FinalsSS3-4 7th place 2003 Slap World Champion SS 3 2003 DB Drag FinalsSS3-4 2nd place 2004 SS 3-4 Record Holder 163.4 2005 SS 3-4 Champ 166.9& WR 166.4 2006 SS 3-4 SBN Champ 167.6 WR 167.4 2006 SS 3-4 WF Champ & WR 168.2 2007 SS 3-4 SBN Champ 168.8 & WR 168.4 I,ll come back when someone beats my certified score!!!! Posts: 745 | From: montgomery, Al | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:Originally posted by JeremyD: Congratulations!!!!
You were able to name ONE manufacturer.....
I guess it goes to show once again how this is not for the betterment of the sport, but for the betterment of a select few manufacturers....
i can name 2 more....
Kicker Digital Designs
I can name a few more...
MTX JBL Pioneer Audiobahn Kenwood Alpine JL Audio Orion PPI Viper Directed and I would bet Rockford Fosgate would not mind seeing them go...
From a manufacturers and a retailers standpoint, they are a big pain in the butt. I know several of you say you have used them in a daily setup, but tell me why a dual VC sub wouldn't work better, or at least as good for less money??? Daily drivers only though, we know the advantages for competition.
PS: If they are so good for daily drivers, why are all the competitors saying they will be worthless if not allowed in DB Drag? Seems you could sell them easily to people with daily drivers if they are really good for that.
quote:Originally posted by spl1: I am so sick of hearing all this bitching, Everyone says that the purpose for the Quad bans and other equipment restrictions are to bring in the new competitors and the average "JOE". Well if you want to go screwing around with established classes and equipment How about do it in the classes that are most likely to be attractive to the new competitors,Can you all say STREET! The reason the new guy can't compete is because the people in those classes are Seasoned competitors and or pros, If you could get those guys out of the street classes Guesswhat You have a place for the new competitors to play!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How much damn sense does it take to reason this one out, I mean come on .. In closing, Stop screwing with the serious competitors that actually make this sport what it is, Extreme. And make the beginner classes be just that, For Beginners....
I really dont think the ban on quads is a ploy to get new/more competitors interested, although I do think it would deffinately make the larger classes fill up again. That would be good, right?
I think it is ALL about DB Drag needing industry sponsors who are willing to put their time and MONEY into db Drag. Not just ONE company footing the bill, but several who find it to be an advantage to do so.
As it sits, We are down to a very select few of sub manufacturers who are sponsoring us, and we have the best/loudest car audio competition format. I really want this sport to grow, but for that to happen we need sponsors.
I can see 2 solutions.
1. Get Pepsi, Nike, etc. to sponsor the DB drag circuit the way KENWOOD used to, but at a higher level.(good luck)
2. Court the Car audio manufacturers who produce the type of products we use. That would be fine if the manufacturers wanted quads(at least a majority of them), but they dont. So unless Memphis, RE, or some other select company wants to come up with a million or so dollars a year to support us, we have to try to get other manufacturers interested. THE ONLY WAY THAT WILL HAPPEN IF WE USE THEIR EQUIPMENT, AND THEY DONT WANT TO MAKE QUADS.
PS: Now that I think about it, even if Company X decided to sponsor DB Drag with a VERY large sum of money, that would probably hurt our sport as it would be considered a biased organization (toward said company) by MANY people. We can only really thrive in the way Wayne wants (and most of the rest of us also) if we have multiple sponsors, each supporting DB drag on a fairly even structure.
I personally feel that the cause of MOST of this is the existance of ump-teen zillion car stereo organizations having all their own finals, and making manufacturers spread their already thin money even thinner. I only compete db drag because that is where I feel the absolute best competitors are. To win in DB Drag really means something, at least to me( I would think, I havent done it thought, LOL) To me, as a competitor, If I cant win at DB Drag finals I wont go to another organization, I will just try harder or do something else that I enjoy doing.
posted
HO-ALTS...so they can sell more alts and batts
p.s. this post is in fun.
-------------------- Team R&D "BUTTON PUSHER" "MR.MINISTREET" Thanks to rick for all the help over the years. 2000 3-4ss 158's 2002 3-4ss 160.'S 2003 IOWA MSD 2 RECORD HOLDER http://www.t
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