posted
Well, the AXE was dropped on the Quads, which I think is a fine idea for the health of the organization. Yes, I know people will be whining about it for the next few months, but they will get over it.
My question is this: Where else can/should the axe be dropped elsewhere?
I will post some possibilities. I don't necessarily agree with these, but they should be discussed:
1) 16V (or anything over the standard 12.5-12.8V) range of batteries 2) cargo vehicles in street 3) 'realistic' and measureable interior in ex 4) modded floors in ss & ex 5) amp mods 6) woofer mods 7) amp power in street (all classes?) 8) battery locations / fitting in street (front & rear)
others?
-------------------- Jeff President, Sweet Sounds, Inc. Three (3) Time World Champions ('00,'00,'02) Eight (8) Time World Record Holders ('00,'01,'02,'03) www.SweetSounds.com Posts: 2734 | From: Mankato MN | Registered: Jun 1999
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Store owners in street should be looked at in my opinion
quote:From DB Drags 2003 rulebook Sponsored – If a competitor receives any form of compensation for promoting an auto sound related product, company, or service, then the competitor is said to be sponsored.
I feel that any shop owner is recieving compensation. This is advertising and will generate business for the store.
-------------------- Just some thoughts from a nobody. Posts: 3683 | From: Lakewood,Ohio | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Fortunz: Store owners in street should be looked at in my opinion
quote:From DB Drags 2003 rulebook Sponsored – If a competitor receives any form of compensation for promoting an auto sound related product, company, or service, then the competitor is said to be sponsored.
I feel that any shop owner is recieving compensation. This is advertising and will generate business for the store.
I agree with you to some extent, but by that logic installers and salesmen, or for that matter any employee for a 12volt retail store would be ineligible for street class. In otherwords one of my installers couldn't compete in street because he derives compensation for his labor for products that we install. That is deriving compensation for service as oulined above. A salesman derives compensation for promoting products that the shop/store sells. A store owner really is no different in that regard. Now, the thing is that I don't believe any shop owner that is even remotely successful is going to pay the normal dealer cost for the product they use in their competition vehicle. If your doing any volume at all you'll either get a dealer demo discount or sponsorhip which is pretty much the same thing one some level or another. That is an unfair advantage, and it is one that is almost always extended to employees as well.
I personally don't have a problem with not allowing store owners in Street class, but I think that there are some very wide ramifications to be considered to this rule as well. By that train of thought you would limit this to an amateur only class, which really is what it should be. Your would be banning a lot of people that currently compete in the street class from continuing to compete and would open the door to cheating and liars. It's kind of impossible to enforce since we can't know who does or does not own or work at a shop.
Posts: 279 | From: GA | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted
As for 16 volt batteries, I'll jump start the conversation here. Below is a copy of a discussion on this issue from another thread. There are 3 or more people quoted in this so please be aware of that when you read through it. I thought it might give us a little jump start here.
Originally posted by Bobby Riley:
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Geo-X:
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How many 8v1 Exides have we sold at our shop? About 300 over the last two years. I just sold 24 the day before USACi finals.
hey, i found a better deal on 8vdc batteries. i found them at circuit city right between the muffler bearings and the blinker fluid. they only cost like $11.49. bobby, you know good and well that there is no defense for the fact that there is not a market for a 16vdc setup in car audio. but just to show that i'm not completely against it, allow me to make this proposal: street....12vdc super street......unlimited 12vdc extreme...........whatever you want as long as it's below 18vdc. thats why it's called "extreme"
bobby, i love ya like a brother, but personally, i still feel they should be banned. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your opinion is noted. We shall see what gets banned when the rules come out. Wanna take any bets??? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why in the world do you think that 16 volt systems should not be allowed in super street? Now I agree, definitely no 16 volt batteries in a street class. But in Super Street running a couple of alternators anyway, then why not allow for 16 volt batteries.
16 volt batteries are a cheap upgrade and actually has many benefits for the vehicle's performance as well. Now the alternator can be costly, but it's only about $25.00 - $50 more then a 200 amp HO alternator charging at 14.5 VDC. In other words, a person who is going into superstreet is likely to upgrade their alternator anyway, for a few extra bucks they can upgrade that alternator to charge a 16 volt battery. Now the 16 volt batteries are not that expensive in comparison to that of say a Yellow Top Optima, in fact they cost about the same to the dealer. (neglible difference)
If your going to do an alternator upgrade and extra battery(ies) to me it is cheaper to just go ahead and upgrade the alternator and use just one 16 volt battery instead of two 12 volt batteries, or one 16 volt up front and less batteries in the back of the vehicle.
A Powermaster XS Volt Altenator and two Turbo Start 16 volt batteries will only cost about $45.00 more for a chevrolet truck (just for instance) then a regular H.O. alternator and a pair of yellow top batteries. If your competing in Super Street your going to have to spend some money on upgrades anyway and that is one d^amn cheap upgrade.
Now, I've heard you say they should be banned. But tell me why? I would like to understand your logic behind this. If you can afford multiple amps, two alternators, tons of batteries, and all that goes with it, then why would the extra few dollars make any difference. The cost difference is negligible, and in fact with a 16 volt system you could easily get by with less batteries to achieve the same power output from a given system which would in fact make the charging system less expensive to be competitive then buying multiple batteries.
Posts: 279 | From: GA | Registered: Nov 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Fortunz: Store owners in street should be looked at in my opinion
quote:From DB Drags 2003 rulebook Sponsored – If a competitor receives any form of compensation for promoting an auto sound related product, company, or service, then the competitor is said to be sponsored.
I feel that any shop owner is recieving compensation. This is advertising and will generate business for the store.
I agree with you to some extent, but by that logic installers and salesmen, or for that matter any employee for a 12volt retail store would be ineligible for street class. In otherwords one of my installers couldn't compete in street because he derives compensation for his labor for products that we install. That is deriving compensation for service as oulined above. A salesman derives compensation for promoting products that the shop/store sells. A store owner really is no different in that regard. Now, the thing is that I don't believe any shop owner that is even remotely successful is going to pay the normal dealer cost for the product they use in their competition vehicle. If your doing any volume at all you'll either get a dealer demo discount or sponsorhip which is pretty much the same thing one some level or another. That is an unfair advantage, and it is one that is almost always extended to employees as well.
I personally don't have a problem with not allowing store owners in Street class, but I think that there are some very wide ramifications to be considered to this rule as well. By that train of thought you would limit this to an amateur only class, which really is what it should be. Your would be banning a lot of people that currently compete in the street class from continuing to compete and would open the door to cheating and liars. It's kind of impossible to enforce since we can't know who does or does not own or work at a shop.
That's the way it is in USACi, if you have any connection to the industry, meaning installer, shop owner whatever, then you are not allowed in Stock.
I think that I have said too much....................I must go now................the SPL Ninja's are upon me Need more power? UP YOURS!! with Excessive Amperage! Posts: 6070 | From: Northern California | Registered: Nov 1999
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posted
Try not to think in terms of "what to ban". That inherently creates loopholes.
Try to think instead in terms of spelling out exactly what it is that should be allowed. Inherently, 'anything else' is understood to not be allowed.
Ineffective: "16v batteries should be banned" "Anything above 12v batteries should be banned" These have inherent loopholes. Hey, I'll run arrays of 8v batteries...
Effective: "Only standard 12v automotive/truck batteries can be used" Anything else is inherently outside the scope.
It's also much, much kinder and easier on competitors if something is identified down the road... It's nicer to say "OK, you can do ______ now." ...than it is to say "OK, you can't do _____ anymore."
The former presents a new option that wasn't there for competitors before, something new to consider. The latter was inherently identified because large numbers of competitors were already doing it, so there's going to inherently be lots of pain in ripping it away.
-------------------- -Chris E Better Audio VP/R&D Visit Car Audio Forum and Car Audio Talk for a new spin... Posts: 71 | From: Buffalo, NY | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
The current rules - and way of making, communicating, and enforcing the rules - is simply counterproductive to the concerns that Wayne Harris has posted.
Currently, it incents competitors to find loopholes and exploit them, regardless of monetary cost.
Ratifications by means of "banning" creates more loopholes, inherently.
Worse, "banning" causes competitors to seek out "the next least expensive means" of getting to the place they want to be... Which inherently is more expensive than the means of getting there before the ban.
Honestly, this is all simple economics. Laws of natural behavior.
Personally, if anyone wants to start a wager going, I'll put up the largest chunk of money that I possibly can afford that this rule - no, this method of making rules - won't work to the end that Wayne is looking for.
I need some money right now, and that would just be easy money to count on... ...like making a bet that when you drop a baseball it'll fall towards the floor rather than the ceiling.
-------------------- -Chris E Better Audio VP/R&D Visit Car Audio Forum and Car Audio Talk for a new spin... Posts: 71 | From: Buffalo, NY | Registered: Sep 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Fortunz: Store owners in street should be looked at in my opinion
quote:From DB Drags 2003 rulebook Sponsored – If a competitor receives any form of compensation for promoting an auto sound related product, company, or service, then the competitor is said to be sponsored.
I feel that any shop owner is recieving compensation. This is advertising and will generate business for the store.
So tell me this...
I have a number of decals on my car from companies and people that have helped me in one way or another in putting my car together...they offered their time,their shop space....but never any money...some of these places arent even car audio related...
Would this be considered sponsorship??or would it be veiwed as I see it...a small token of my gratitude for what they did?
-------------------- "I wish I could change my user name" Zero Hurtz Car Audio Forum http://zerohurtz.tripod.com/ Posts: 380 | From: Calgary | Registered: Nov 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Fortunz: Store owners in street should be looked at in my opinion
quote:From DB Drags 2003 rulebook Sponsored – If a competitor receives any form of compensation for promoting an auto sound related product, company, or service, then the competitor is said to be sponsored.
I feel that any shop owner is recieving compensation. This is advertising and will generate business for the store.
I can say from the past that having a sucessful DB Drag vehicle does not contribute to sales at the business. I was Street 1-2 Champ in 01 and a month after finals my store went under. It is not good advertising most average customers don't even know what DB Drag is. It all depends on the market of the area where the shop is located. You want to know what the main problem was though I didn't carry anything I was competing with, pretty sad huh, I always thought so. But I had to have the best to be competitive and I did whatever it took even if it meant not using the products I told all my customers to buy. Just my 2 cents but who cares I was just a lowly Steet 1-2 World Champion......
Posts: 36 | From: Machesney Park, IL | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
I think people who work/own a shop should be able to compete in street. Think about it.. what's the difference if they compete or someone comes into the shop and they build them a competition car for a very cheap price? There are alot of shops that don't make enough money to be able to build a vehicle for ss or extreme.. so why limit them? How many people that work in shops have won finals in either street class in the past few years??
-------------------- Shattered and Broken. Now Recovering. Posts: 1226 | From: Mississauga, ON, Canada | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
This was brought up in a different thread about a shop car competing in street normally and jumping class to make it easier for local people to win in street. The general impression I got was that a shop doesn't like to compete their Street class cars against their customers because they kill the kids that shop at their stores.
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by SweetSoundsAudio:
If I decide to build and run a street car and have it run at my own shows....I would much prefer to run it in a higher class so all the people who want to have a chance to win can have one. Sometimes the motivating factor is a GOOD one. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't understand why this is a good motivating factor. Is this because you feel that a store shouldn't compete in a street class and that you feel that your customers should have to compete with a shop car?
I would love to move up in class just because at a show but the rules are the rules.
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quoted from 2003 Db Drags Rulebook
Question – May a competitor enter any class for which his vehicle does not qualify? For example, could a competitor who normally competes in the Super Street 1-2 class enter the Extreme 1-2 class?
Answer – Absolutely not. The class a competitor competes in is dictated by the number of woofers in their system and the extent to which modifications to the vehicle have been made. Competitors may only compete in classes for which their vehicle legitimately qualifies.
I think it is pretty cut and dried and the question was clearly answered. This does bring up the question of sponsorship in street classes. Any shop owner gets financial incentives in the form of advertising at the least from a competition car.
quote:Originally posted by Fortunz: Store owners in street should be looked at in my opinion
quote:From DB Drags 2003 rulebook Sponsored – If a competitor receives any form of compensation for promoting an auto sound related product, company, or service, then the competitor is said to be sponsored.
I feel that any shop owner is recieving compensation. This is advertising and will generate business for the store.
I can say from the past that having a sucessful DB Drag vehicle does not contribute to sales at the business. I was Street 1-2 Champ in 01 and a month after finals my store went under. It is not good advertising most average customers don't even know what DB Drag is. It all depends on the market of the area where the shop is located. You want to know what the main problem was though I didn't carry anything I was competing with, pretty sad huh, I always thought so. But I had to have the best to be competitive and I did whatever it took even if it meant not using the products I told all my customers to buy. Just my 2 cents but who cares I was just a lowly Steet 1-2 World Champion......
Ditto (almost), it was S3-4 in 2000....... Although we still have our doors open.
-------------------- Jeff President, Sweet Sounds, Inc. Three (3) Time World Champions ('00,'00,'02) Eight (8) Time World Record Holders ('00,'01,'02,'03) www.SweetSounds.com Posts: 2734 | From: Mankato MN | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
That is also why the store i supported didnt have shows....cause they where like. Why have a show where a: the local guys going to be beat bad b:where people pay no where near retail price for there stuff. c:gets beat by eq. thats mostly is internet only product
Here is a exsample...kid runs ss1-2 gets beat by a guy useing mtx 81000d's. He uses them to but the other guy has 2x as many he is on team thunderforce. So the local kid asks how much did you pay for ure amps the thunderforce guy says well...around 250 give or take...local kid then starts to get pissed and mad at hell at the shop putting on the show. Cause he paid around $700 full retail dollars for his from this same store(they are a mtx dealer). And then the kid asks what kind of subs are them and where do i get them.. well since he was using dd/re/atomic/treo/shocker/cnsounds and no one in that area sells them then he buys them online. These are some of the reasons why i dont see as many shows and retail members anymore.
quote:Originally posted by Fortunz: Store owners in street should be looked at in my opinion
quote:From DB Drags 2003 rulebook Sponsored – If a competitor receives any form of compensation for promoting an auto sound related product, company, or service, then the competitor is said to be sponsored.
I feel that any shop owner is recieving compensation. This is advertising and will generate business for the store.
EXACTLY. store owners should not be allowed in street! Drives me crazy when people who can't handle competing in upper classes have to drop to street, if I owned a shop and ran street, I would feel pretty pathetic
-------------------- 2003 8th place World finals finish Loudest 1st Gen crx in the WORLD Loudest street A slotport Team DB Audio Loudest stock Car at usaci finals 159.8 Posts: 1405 | From: tulsa, ok | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Fortunz: Store owners in street should be looked at in my opinion
quote:From DB Drags 2003 rulebook Sponsored – If a competitor receives any form of compensation for promoting an auto sound related product, company, or service, then the competitor is said to be sponsored.
I feel that any shop owner is recieving compensation. This is advertising and will generate business for the store.
EXACTLY. store owners should not be allowed in street! Drives me crazy when people who can't handle competing in upper classes have to drop to street, if I owned a shop and ran street, I would feel pretty pathetic
There are alot of reasons why an owner would compete in street. For me it was money. Everyone assumes if you own or work at a shop you get everything for free. I got nothing, I spent over 10 g's of my own money in 2001 to play. That was all I could afford and 10 g's isn't going to get me anywhere in the bigger classes. It came down to money and I didn't have enough to compete in extreme. And I didn't feel pathetic it felt preety good. My van never competed at a local event either only doubles and triples. You can look up my stats under Team Cheatercenter. The most controversal street car in DB Drag history......
-------------------- David Lawrence B's Mobile Dynamix Porky's Hydraulics
Let's Do The Damn Thing.......... Posts: 36 | From: Machesney Park, IL | Registered: Oct 2000
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