No one has suggested it yet. Thus far we've seen the avocation of power limits, fuse limits, size limits, current limits, BUT there is one thing RELATIVELY constant amongst amps...
WEIGHT!
Perhaps we can limit what amps are used based on TOTAL WEIGHT of the amps alone! It's not something that is easily fudged by a company, not if you want to keep things reliable....
And it would be a way to keep the crown from being the ONLY amp in db drag - still keep it in there competitively but not monopolotatively. (is that a word? lol)
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posted
But what is going to stop a company from making a heat sink that is very thin?? For a 5s burp it does not need to be all that large to disapate the heat effectivly and it will make the amps run much hotter and be more of a fire hazzard......a Harrison Labs 4800.1 does over 4800wts rms and wieghs less than a US 2000x.....
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posted
Also, are the judges going to have to bring a scale to shows with them? Who will pull the amps to be weighed in? I think if there is to be a limit on amps then the best way to do it is by physical size. Easy to check, and a fairly good standard to go by.
posted
can't police this can't police that will be the cry from my suggestion.
LIMIT POWER
who cares about cheater amps BFD if someone or amp company thinks they can get the imp on the sub anywhere down to 1/4 or 1/8th ohm load is kidding themselves.
several things can be checked
1. ohm load (dcr) of the coils 2. # of amps 3. rail voltage 4. incoming voltage/amps
lets make it fair and "policeable"
1. DCR per coil can't be below .7 ohms 2. No more than 2 bridged monoblock amps per coil (dvc sub) 3. No more than 1 monoblock amps per coil (qvc sub) 4. output voltage is limited to 170 volts per coil (dvc) 90 volts (qvc) 5. max amp draw 300 amps @12v 250 amps @18v or less
just generic ideas throw them around see what you think
-------------------- ---Member of Team Gates---
Don't knock it, if you know nothing about it. Posts: 3071 | From: Okla USA | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Iboomalot: can't police this can't police that will be the cry from my suggestion.
LIMIT POWER
who cares about cheater amps BFD if someone or amp company thinks they can get the imp on the sub anywhere down to 1/4 or 1/8th ohm load is kidding themselves.
several things can be checked
1. ohm load (dcr) of the coils 2. # of amps 3. rail voltage 4. incoming voltage/amps
lets make it fair and "policeable"
1. DCR per coil can't be below .7 ohms 2. No more than 2 bridged monoblock amps per coil (dvc sub) 3. No more than 1 monoblock amps per coil (qvc sub) 4. output voltage is limited to 170 volts per coil (dvc) 90 volts (qvc) 5. max amp draw 300 amps @12v 250 amps @18v or less
just generic ideas throw them around see what you think
That seems fair, because those are things you can measure.....I think we are on to something
-------------------- Canadian Street Max 1-2 record holder 152.5 db's PROUD MEMBER OF TEAM GATES Posts: 433 | From: Fort Saskatchewan | Registered: Dec 2002
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quote:Originally posted by loud_aurora: Also, are the judges going to have to bring a scale to shows with them? Who will pull the amps to be weighed in? I think if there is to be a limit on amps then the best way to do it is by physical size. Easy to check, and a fairly good standard to go by.
Please tell me how size is any different from weight. Accrueing a chart of amps and amp weights would be cake...
-------------------- 2005 Florida Street C Champion 2004 SBN Street C Champion 2004 SBN IDBL No Wall Champion 2003 NOPI Nats Street B Champion
quote:Originally posted by Iboomalot: can't police this can't police that will be the cry from my suggestion.
LIMIT POWER
who cares about cheater amps BFD if someone or amp company thinks they can get the imp on the sub anywhere down to 1/4 or 1/8th ohm load is kidding themselves.
several things can be checked
1. ohm load (dcr) of the coils 2. # of amps 3. rail voltage 4. incoming voltage/amps
lets make it fair and "policeable"
1. DCR per coil can't be below .7 ohms 2. No more than 2 bridged monoblock amps per coil (dvc sub) 3. No more than 1 monoblock amps per coil (qvc sub) 4. output voltage is limited to 170 volts per coil (dvc) 90 volts (qvc) 5. max amp draw 300 amps @12v 250 amps @18v or less
just generic ideas throw them around see what you think
i can pull an amp from my car and put it in one of the teams stock cars and everything you sudgested will be differant..and how would you know if im going full tilt?..from running usac the past 2 years..i honestly think we need to stay away from "rating" of amps..my amps are rated and 25w..will do 70w on a 4ohm resister..but about 1700rms on 16v @1ohm...
-------------------- Alan Hall Broken Silence CC 2007 usaci mod 1001-2000 champion 163.6 2003 usaci mod151-300 legal record holder 4th 2002 usaci finals mod 0-150 6th 2003 usaci finals mod 151-300 4th 2004 usaci finals prostock 1001-5000 4th 2005 usac finals mod 301-900 Posts: 667 | From: Troy IL | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
i personally are using kicker zr1000's, they are very heavy and don't put out anywhere near the power of amplifiers much lighter. as quoted from above, weight is irrelevent to the output,and most guys could care less about reliability when all it needs to live for is 3-4 seconds.combination of hight & width would work as well as measured performance and class of amplifier.
quote:Originally posted by Spl Magician: i can pull an amp from my car and put it in one of the teams stock cars and everything you sudgested will be differant..and how would you know if im going full tilt?..from running usac the past 2 years..i honestly think we need to stay away from "rating" of amps..my amps are rated and 25w..will do 70w on a 4ohm resister..but about 1700rms on 16v @1ohm...
swapping amps won't change anything takes power to make power. If you want to run your 1700 rms amp at 4 ohms during the run and then switch it to 1ohm after the run thats fine according to the rules. The jusges have to put a meter on your electrical to make sure its under 18v just put another meter on your speaker leads. Full tilt ?? if you want to run a JBL/crown anp and run it at 50% and not stress it and stay within the rules so be it.
This would cut down on cheating and since its not based on wattage or factory power ratings it doesn't matter if the amp can produce 100,000 watts if you can only use a certain amount to stay within the rules.
anyways Iam sure someone would try and cheat the system but it wouldn't be easy to do. This also would force amp companies to make amps more eff. use of the power.
-------------------- ---Member of Team Gates---
Don't knock it, if you know nothing about it. Posts: 3071 | From: Okla USA | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Ghost man: But what is going to stop a company from making a heat sink that is very thin?? For a 5s burp it does not need to be all that large to disapate the heat effectivly and it will make the amps run much hotter and be more of a fire hazzard......a Harrison Labs 4800.1 does over 4800wts rms and wieghs less than a US 2000x.....
"equipment must be available at retail stores and outlets"
What stops a company from making an amp like you say? Reliability issues! They can sink a company. Say a company makes five hundred thousand of these amps and 499 thousand fail due to being used by regular street folks.
The rule that we need for amps:
"No limited run/single production amps may be used" "Any amp used must be available at retail stores" keeping this rule cuts off a loophole.
So, How do we limit the amps? Hmmmmmm. What limited the jbl crown amp? Car off and one single batt.
So: "car batt. must fit in OEM tray with no mods and in a secure placement." So? It worked,right? "amplifier must fit in a space of no longer that 14 inches long and a HT. of no more that three inches and a width of no more than 12 inches"
Easy to verify. And I have yet to see a jbl/crown run in car off and single batt.
So: select a width/HT/length ratio and make it the law. Easy to verify. If the amp fits: OK. Amp no fit! Pick another category to compete in.!
We used to have a mic jig?
So make a amp fit jig. I.e. they use jigs to check compliance of car outer body measurements. The only real factor left is picking the ratios for the final ruling.
There you go.
-------------------- You are what you read. Un happy with your life? Change what you read. Change what you are. Posts: 206 | From: Nobodys damn business but mine | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Ghost man: But what is going to stop a company from making a heat sink that is very thin?? For a 5s burp it does not need to be all that large to disapate the heat effectivly and it will make the amps run much hotter and be more of a fire hazzard......a Harrison Labs 4800.1 does over 4800wts rms and wieghs less than a US 2000x.....
"equipment must be available at retail stores and outlets"
What stops a company from making an amp like you say? Reliability issues! They can sink a company. Say a company makes five hundred thousand of these amps and 499 thousand fail due to being used by regular street folks.
The rule that we need for amps:
"No limited run/single production amps may be used" "Any amp used must be available at retail stores" keeping this rule cuts off a loophole.
So, How do we limit the amps? Hmmmmmm. What limited the jbl crown amp? Car off and one single batt.
So: "car batt. must fit in OEM tray with no mods and in a secure placement." So? It worked,right? "amplifier must fit in a space of no longer that 14 inches long and a HT. of no more that three inches and a width of no more than 12 inches"
Easy to verify. And I have yet to see a jbl/crown run in car off and single batt.
So: select a width/HT/length ratio and make it the law. Easy to verify. If the amp fits: OK. Amp no fit! Pick another category to compete in.!
We used to have a mic jig?
So make a amp fit jig. I.e. they use jigs to check compliance of car outer body measurements. The only real factor left is picking the ratios for the final ruling.
There you go.
But there in lies a problem..the kicker zr1000 does 1300wts rms and has a larger phisical size than the D2 @ 2500wts.....also most Boss, Lanzar and other cheap amps of the like that are found in alot of typical street systems are larger than a D2, jbl 1200.1, ccd2400 or a kx1200.1 but only do 1/2 to 1/3 the power........
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posted
be better to just put a small fuse in line-limit it to a 60amp in streeta and 150 in b and make it a 10sec toneburst and then if you had a smaller ab amp runing balls-out you would do better than a big ab amp class ab is as efficient as class d when its running balls-out at clipping i bet a 600 watt ab amp in streeta would do better than a 1kw ab amp would with 60 amps fuse for 10seconds and who cant afford a 600 watt amp/? plus then it makes it all about the install and design
Posts: 183 | From: Joyzee | Registered: May 2003
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posted
But... what's the purpose of segmenting by the weight of your amps.. or the size of your amps?
Is there a reason for coming up with these creative classifications, or are you just trying to dream up interesting ways to create classes to segment by?
It seems like you are just creating classes based on something that's totally not the thing you are looking to segment by. Do you really care if other competitor's amps are heavier than yours? Have you ever given that one iota of thought with regard to another competitor having an advantage over you before?
Anyway... If there is a reason for dreaming these new classifications up, why not use IT to create the segmentations by?
Is it cost? You want to group competitors based on dollars spent (as was the spirit of one of Wayne's mentioned concerns)? Then group by cost. Use MSRP to level the playing field (who cares "what you really paid"). Only count that which is in the subwoofer's signal chain.
It's easy to tell a manufacturer who's cheating on that MSRP number, and a couple conservative "corrected MSRP values" would keep future cheaters from attempting it.
A nice side effect is that it actually encourages manufacturers to build more affordible amplifiers... because that's what competitors would be demanding.
If you group by amp weight... you'll be encouraging manufacturers to develop ultra-lightweight amplifiers, because that's what competitors are demanding. That isn't cheap.
If you group by amp size... you'll be encouraging manufacturers to develop ultra-small amplifiers, because that's what competitors are demanding. That's also inherently not cheap.
And in both cases, you are inciting them to manufacture amps that are outside of what they would have designed for the regular retail audience... But cheaper amplifiers... obviously would go over well with the retail market, not just competitors.
Much more in line with what Wayne's concerns are.
It also almost inherently limits power in a much more effective way... I've always felt the old "you get what you pay for" rule seems to hold true to car audio amplifiers much more than with other gear. Almost a true equalizer.
Or maybe you have another reason. Use it. Directly. Just make classifications based on it.
-------------------- -Chris E Better Audio VP/R&D Visit Car Audio Forum and Car Audio Talk for a new spin... Posts: 71 | From: Buffalo, NY | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
I'm sorry, but I think this is the stupidist Idea for obvious reasons
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