posted
well geolemon multiple times in his post said something like... "competitors would no longer be rewarded for "money is no object" installs over clever ones..."
thats what i've been asking for.... an install that only gets loud cause the owner had to work & be clever in the installation.
anybody can be loud if given a 10kwatts or more power and a few subs.
-------------------- - I don't have a problem with people, its dumb people. So 90% of those who breathe i have trouble with. - If beauty is only skin deep, then ugly goes all the way to the bone Posts: 300 | From: Spokane, WA | Registered: May 2003
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quote: How many 8v1 Exides have we sold at our shop? About 300 over the last two years. I just sold 24 the day before USACi finals.
hey, i found a better deal on 8vdc batteries. i found them at circuit city right between the muffler bearings and the blinker fluid. they only cost like $11.49. bobby, you know good and well that there is no defense for the fact that there is not a market for a 16vdc setup in car audio. but just to show that i'm not completely against it, allow me to make this proposal: street....12vdc super street......unlimited 12vdc extreme...........whatever you want as long as it's below 18vdc. thats why it's called "extreme"
bobby, i love ya like a brother, but personally, i still feel they should be banned.
Your opinion is noted. We shall see what gets banned when the rules come out. Wanna take any bets???
-------------------- Bobby Riley Art's Sound Chamber
Fifteen time SPL World Champions-----26 SPL World Records DB Drag == IASCA == USACi == MECA Posts: 3484 | From: Retirement Village in Branson Missouri. | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Geo-X: ...bobby, i love ya like a brother, but personally, i still feel they should be banned.
Your opinion is noted. We shall see what gets banned when the rules come out. Wanna take any bets??? [/QB]
Banning isn't necessary (or rather, it's implied and actually understood), if the rules instead spell out what the desired competitor behavior IS to be, rather than trying to indirectly get there by "banning" everything that is NOT...
quote:Originally posted by Geo-X: my god, people are comin up with some long winded posts!
Long winded as my post may seem, I'm particularly interested what two competitors such as yourselves think... Don't take this the wrong way (as it's not a criticism)... but I mean that in the sense of two guys who have been thinking under this "old methodology" so long it seems the mindset is tough to break.
You might find it refreshing, actually. Let's find a real solution, as opposed to bias-based bickering. "By the people, for the people."
-------------------- -Chris E Better Audio VP/R&D Visit Car Audio Forum and Car Audio Talk for a new spin... Posts: 71 | From: Buffalo, NY | Registered: Sep 2001
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quote: How many 8v1 Exides have we sold at our shop? About 300 over the last two years. I just sold 24 the day before USACi finals.
hey, i found a better deal on 8vdc batteries. i found them at circuit city right between the muffler bearings and the blinker fluid. they only cost like $11.49. bobby, you know good and well that there is no defense for the fact that there is not a market for a 16vdc setup in car audio. but just to show that i'm not completely against it, allow me to make this proposal: street....12vdc super street......unlimited 12vdc extreme...........whatever you want as long as it's below 18vdc. thats why it's called "extreme"
bobby, i love ya like a brother, but personally, i still feel they should be banned.
Your opinion is noted. We shall see what gets banned when the rules come out. Wanna take any bets???
If they arent it just shows Waynes not all too interested in this "off the shelf products" speel and more into the politics of it. I also willing to bet you know alot more about the rule changes than most of us. If 16v batts are outlawed, I will be shopping for some new 12v batts. If they arent then Im gonna load em up in the van and pray to the SPL gods I have enough time and money to do what it takes to get loud. (yes Steve I said "get loud" )
posted
just asking, how is a ban going to be enforced? if someone has a q and runs it in series-parellel or series or parellel or what ever if they use ony 2 amps per sub how will you know it a q or dvc?
Posts: 1172 | From: estill springs, tn USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
To me, 'off the shelf' doesn't really apply to batteries, as very few of the batts we use are 12V ONLY specific batts. The ones that are almost always offer a 16v counterpart in the lineup.
Interstate and Exide could care less what we do with their batteries.
Quads 16v batteries Undrivable SS vehicles 80Hz freq limit
rest with a technical argumant? Why does the man on the street care the technicallities of a QVC sub could do him better? He dossnt care, he sees an image of mainly SPL competitors use them.
Lets take a system that a loud boomer has, and roll the rules in his direction. A boomer will have:
SVC or DVC subs 12v batteries 30-40Hz tune SEATS
Why do the boomers not bother to compete? The gap is too large, not just in output, but equipment. They would maybe "think" they have a better chance up against a similar specified system? So when they lose, instead of putting it down to equipment, and walking away from dbdrag forever, they may come and ask how we get more SPL than them, and maybe stick around dbdrag?
The above dosnt apply to Extreme, as this is supposed to be extreme, but Extreme needs to be held back slightly, so the gap between it and SS dosnt grow any wider than it already is. (2 or 3 manufacturers doing subs for extreme only aint going to go down well with the other manufacturers who cant cope with 50 quads a year)
How does it affect any of us if the freq limit is dropped? It dosnt (only the lazy ones, who dont re-build EVERY season) Everyone would just have to learn new things, new ways to tune that longer wave length. People who dont re-build aint winners, so by playing a lower note, they still dont win...
Seats in SS. Maybe these SS cars will still get trailered, but pulling a crate off the floor in the judging lanes dont look so good. A SS car should at least "look" like it could be driven, ie bieng able to fit behind the steering wheel with a seat in place.
The image of dbdrag in the UK is sooo bad. AND dbdrag "has" died here, I believe for much of the above. The "image" of the equipment used by the few top competitors. The 80 hz freq limit is just a big a killer though, with several competitors giving up, and going back to a low tune.
-------------------- - Firestarter - 9 times UK Champion. European Bassrace Champion 2007. IdbL Stock Pro 2 World Record Holder 2006 www.TheFirestarter.net
Posts: 831 | From: England | Registered: May 2000
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quote:Originally posted by jarfunkz: Wayne, if you are going to come down on quad coil and using equipment that is actually sold, you really need to come down on modified amplifiers, and subs that are not for sale at stores. I think all of us know what these are, I am not going to call anyone or any company out. It seems if you are going to limit 1 area, you are going to have to limit a few others as well.
This was a very nice post and i hope you had a happy thanksgiving.
EXACTLY..........
-------------------- In Loving Memory, David Alfaro
2008 US.Top Cert.Street C 158.4 2008 25-48 No-wall NSPL World Champion,World Record 159.0 2007 U.S.Top Cert. Street A,B,C 2005 Db Drag Street A World Champion 2004 Db Drag US. record 642 points 2003 Db Drag Points World Champion http://www.maxxsonics.com/
Back in 02 my girlfriend said I had to make a choice between her and DB Drag....I told that b-tch I've made harder decisions at the Coke machine. Posts: 4141 | From: Suitland,MD USA | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
i still dont see why everyone is hammer the part in waynes post about the subs not being of the shelf or whatever. am i the only one WHO DOES NOT see this as his main point..just a supporting comment..
-------------------- Alan Hall Broken Silence CC 2007 usaci mod 1001-2000 champion 163.6 2003 usaci mod151-300 legal record holder 4th 2002 usaci finals mod 0-150 6th 2003 usaci finals mod 151-300 4th 2004 usaci finals prostock 1001-5000 4th 2005 usac finals mod 301-900 Posts: 667 | From: Troy IL | Registered: Apr 2000
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First, we MUST insure that normal, everyday enthusiasts with everyday run-of-the-mill sound systems have a place to play. This is the only way we can grow. Our success requires new participation each and every year. The only way this will happen is if we offer classes that give these "real-world" systems a fair shake.
Secondly, we MUST insure that the products being used for competition are legitimate retail products.
[/QB]
ok so where does this leave someone like me that has not bought an amp in almost 4 years i have not bought a sub in 2 years i got a box given to me and has pieced together a system with little money when i get it, but because of the size of my subs i'm forced to run in a class that is way to over priced for the average joe like me.granted i'm the loudest spl vehicle in the town where i live but,at almost every comp i have gone to i have had my a@@ handed to me by someone with more power i run less power then most of the street a competitors (i have less then 2,000 watts of max power into 2 subs ) the only thing in my system that is even the same name is my head unit and 1 of my subs(both are sony )
2 of my amps are not even made any more so does that mean that i can't compete or does it mean i have to buy new ones
-------------------- 2 extremes and sometimes 2 ph5000 for daily driving Posts: 34 | From: ohio | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote: Originally posted by team_menace ok so where does this leave someone like me that has not bought an amp in almost 4 years i have not bought a sub in 2 years i got a box given to me and has pieced together a system with little money when i get it, but because of the size of my subs i'm forced to run in a class that is way to over priced for the average joe like me.granted i'm the loudest spl vehicle in the town where i live but,at almost every comp i have gone to i have had my a@@ handed to me by someone with more power i run less power then most of the street a competitors (i have less then 2,000 watts of max power into 2 subs ) the only thing in my system that is even the same name is my head unit and 1 of my subs(both are sony )
2 of my amps are not even made any more so does that mean that i can't compete or does it mean i have to buy new ones
First off team Are you trying to take your car to finals this year? Where in ohio are you at? If you would like to get louder or work on your system to be more competitive in db drags there are a whole lot of people willing to lend a hand to make what you have to work with be the best it can be.
What class are you currently running in and what do you have for equiptment?
-------------------- Just some thoughts from a nobody. Posts: 3683 | From: Lakewood,Ohio | Registered: Aug 2003
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well then ban 16 volt batteries and 16 volt batcaps 16 volt alts,and modded amps, stop competitors from reconing there own speakers
thats a lil rough now, yes I see what your saying about the batts but you know how many ppl run 16 volt batts and how many ppl have??? to try and sell there batts and buy all new ones, that gets costly. and Recoing subs, that helps cost as well, if you have a 2 woofer class and you can;t recone, then you gotta buy 2 more 3-500 dollar woofers. your **** guy.
There is a major difference between 16 volt batteries and quad coil subwoofers. 16 volt batteries were around long before quad coil subwoofers and are commercially available for a variety of applications. (most common is racing that I am aware of, but who knows what) These are products and charging systems brought over from other commercial industries and integrated into our market and potentially bringing additional manufacturer support along with them. Being both commercially avaialable, high profile at major events, and relatively cost effective upgrades, these all fit perfectly into a retail sales plan. Alternators and upgraded charging systems also fit into this plan.
In point of fact, there is absolutely no parallel or even similarity between QVC Subs and 16 volt batteries/charging systems. (and I love quad coil subs, I use them muself, but I can see many legitimate points which far outweight your concerns to this industry as a whole.
Regardless as to what industry the 16v bolts are available for they aren't an off the shelf item for car audio. How many of them have you sold at your shop?
In point of fact there are 16 volt batteries aimed directly at the car audio market and we have sold 8 of them in the last 6-7 months. Check out Turbo Start batteries, particularly their car audio batteries.
Posts: 279 | From: GA | Registered: Nov 2003
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quote: these people like to see outrageous installs that have 8 or more amps per sub that hit awesome #'s. BUT are affraid to compete in compititions cause there isn't a class JUST FOR THEM.
That is a point that needs to be made, but I believe that if you go back through and read part of Wayne's comments you'll see that what you are saying is very similar to the direction that Wayne Feels we should go.
One of the best customers that a retailer has is someone who starts out with a pair of 12" subs in a basic enclosure with some decent little amp and gets bitten by the SPL bug. You give them pretty good deals on equipment but still make some money and they keep coming back to get more out of their system as their budget allows. In order to be of any value to a retailer then there has to be shows which cater specifically to this market, the beginners who haven't gotten there yet.
Get the street classes down to make this attractive to these young low budget guys and I'll commit to 6 shows in 2004 as a retailer and I'm sure that many others would as well. Otherwise, we will just have to keep looking at other, less attractive formats for our shows.
Posts: 279 | From: GA | Registered: Nov 2003
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quote: How many 8v1 Exides have we sold at our shop? About 300 over the last two years. I just sold 24 the day before USACi finals.
hey, i found a better deal on 8vdc batteries. i found them at circuit city right between the muffler bearings and the blinker fluid. they only cost like $11.49. bobby, you know good and well that there is no defense for the fact that there is not a market for a 16vdc setup in car audio. but just to show that i'm not completely against it, allow me to make this proposal: street....12vdc super street......unlimited 12vdc extreme...........whatever you want as long as it's below 18vdc. thats why it's called "extreme"
bobby, i love ya like a brother, but personally, i still feel they should be banned.
Your opinion is noted. We shall see what gets banned when the rules come out. Wanna take any bets???
Why in the world do you think that 16 volt systems should not be allowed in super street? Now I agree, definitely no 16 volt batteries in a street class. But in Super Street running a couple of alternators anyway, then why not allow for 16 volt batteries.
16 volt batteries are a cheap upgrade and actually has many benefits for the vehicle's performance as well. Now the alternator can be costly, but it's only about $25.00 - $50 more then a 200 amp HO alternator charging at 14.5 VDC. In other words, a person who is going into superstreet is likely to upgrade their alternator anyway, for a few extra bucks they can upgrade that alternator to charge a 16 volt battery. Now the 16 volt batteries are not that expensive in comparison to that of say a Yellow Top Optima, in fact they cost about the same to the dealer. (neglible difference)
If your going to do an alternator upgrade and extra battery(ies) to me it is cheaper to just go ahead and upgrade the alternator and use just one 16 volt battery instead of two 12 volt batteries, or one 16 volt up front and less batteries in the back of the vehicle.
A Powermaster XS Volt Altenator and two Turbo Start 16 volt batteries will only cost about $45.00 more for a chevrolet truck (just for instance) then a regular H.O. alternator and a pair of yellow top batteries. If your competing in Super Street your going to have to spend some money on upgrades anyway and that is one d^amn cheap upgrade.
Now, I've heard you say they should be banned. But tell me why? I would like to understand your logic behind this. If you can afford multiple amps, two alternators, tons of batteries, and all that goes with it, then why would the extra few dollars make any difference. The cost difference is negligible, and in fact with a 16 volt system you could easily get by with less batteries to achieve the same power output from a given system which would in fact make the charging system less expensive to be competitive then buying multiple batteries.
Posts: 279 | From: GA | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted
Firestarter you have some very good points on the survival of dbdrags, we ahave a similar problem to the UK there are not a hugh number of competitors and all in Africa. We have to tigten rules to cater for the man in the street to make it more fun. The maufacturer still sells equipment whether it is DVC's QVC's or whatever.
-------------------- dB Drags South Africa. Posts: 152 | From: Johannesburg - South Africa | Registered: Aug 2001
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