posted                   

quote:

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First, we MUST insure that normal, everyday enthusiasts with everyday run-of-the-mill sound systems have a place to play. This is the only way we can grow. Our success requires new participation each and every year. The only way this will happen is if we offer classes that give these "real-world" systems a fair shake.

---

Agreed Wayne. This will be accomplished through Street. It is the heart of db Drag. SS and EX are elitist, and that's what they're for. (the rules as they were are fine)

I think it should be made to be Street in the truest sense.

First, I think the frequency limit should be @ 45hz at most(low tuned DAILY systems should have no problem here, after all, these are STREET systems)

Secondly, I think there you should be allowed 1 amp in street. Period.

The guys that want to do well in Street are always gonna have the biggest amp and best subs. Just a fact of competition, but at the local levels, this makes it alot more reasonable for people new to the sport to do well.
DVC or QVC in street, it doesn't matter. If a manufacturer wants to produce these products, and the consumer wants to buy them, why stop them? Theres no adavantage/disadvantage. Let the consumer/market decide if quads will stay.

These rules would be easy to enforce, reduce costs for competitors(which is always a good thing ) and you'd see more people turn out.


Just my opinion.

--------------------
Legalize Marijuana

Links:
www.pot-tv.net
www.norml.org

"We can have a democratic society, or we can have the concentration of great wealth in the hands of the few. We cannot have both." - Louis Brandeis

Thanks go out to: dB Don, HCCAfan and the "Termpro Guys"

Posts: 4390 | From: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Navidriver:

quote:

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Originally posted by Chris Dilbeck:

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Originally posted by dreid:

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Originally posted by Tom Orozco:


well then ban 16 volt batteries and 16 volt batcaps 16 volt alts,and modded amps, stop competitors from reconing there own speakers

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thats a lil rough now, yes I see what your saying about the batts but you know how many ppl run 16 volt batts and how many ppl have??? to try and sell there batts and buy all new ones, that gets costly. and Recoing subs, that helps cost as well, if you have a 2 woofer class and you can;t recone, then you gotta buy 2 more 3-500 dollar woofers.
your **** guy.

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There is a major difference between 16 volt batteries and quad coil subwoofers. 16 volt batteries were around long before quad coil subwoofers and are commercially available for a variety of applications. (most common is racing that I am aware of, but who knows what) These are products and charging systems brought over from other commercial industries and integrated into our market and potentially bringing additional manufacturer support along with them. Being both commercially avaialable, high profile at major events, and relatively cost effective upgrades, these all fit perfectly into a retail sales plan. Alternators and upgraded charging systems also fit into this plan.

In point of fact, there is absolutely no parallel or even similarity between QVC Subs and 16 volt batteries/charging systems. (and I love quad coil subs, I use them muself, but I can see many legitimate points which far outweight your concerns to this industry as a whole.

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Regardless as to what industry the 16v bolts are available for they aren't an off the shelf item for car audio. How many of them have you sold at your shop?

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Posts: 6552 | From: Buffalo, NY | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Navidriver:

quote:

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Originally posted by Chris Dilbeck:

quote:

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Originally posted by dreid:

quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Orozco:


well then ban 16 volt batteries and 16 volt batcaps 16 volt alts,and modded amps, stop competitors from reconing there own speakers

---

thats a lil rough now, yes I see what your saying about the batts but you know how many ppl run 16 volt batts and how many ppl have??? to try and sell there batts and buy all new ones, that gets costly. and Recoing subs, that helps cost as well, if you have a 2 woofer class and you can;t recone, then you gotta buy 2 more 3-500 dollar woofers.
your **** guy.

---

There is a major difference between 16 volt batteries and quad coil subwoofers. 16 volt batteries were around long before quad coil subwoofers and are commercially available for a variety of applications. (most common is racing that I am aware of, but who knows what) These are products and charging systems brought over from other commercial industries and integrated into our market and potentially bringing additional manufacturer support along with them. Being both commercially avaialable, high profile at major events, and relatively cost effective upgrades, these all fit perfectly into a retail sales plan. Alternators and upgraded charging systems also fit into this plan.

In point of fact, there is absolutely no parallel or even similarity between QVC Subs and 16 volt batteries/charging systems. (and I love quad coil subs, I use them muself, but I can see many legitimate points which far outweight your concerns to this industry as a whole.

---

Regardless as to what industry the 16v bolts are available for they aren't an off the shelf item for car audio. How many of them have you sold at your shop?

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Posts: 3484 | From: Retirement Village in Branson Missouri. | Registered: May 1999  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                    

quote:

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Originally posted by Bobby Riley:

quote:

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Originally posted by Navidriver:

quote:

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Originally posted by Chris Dilbeck:

quote:

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Originally posted by dreid:

quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Orozco:


well then ban 16 volt batteries and 16 volt batcaps 16 volt alts,and modded amps, stop competitors from reconing there own speakers

---

thats a lil rough now, yes I see what your saying about the batts but you know how many ppl run 16 volt batts and how many ppl have??? to try and sell there batts and buy all new ones, that gets costly. and Recoing subs, that helps cost as well, if you have a 2 woofer class and you can;t recone, then you gotta buy 2 more 3-500 dollar woofers.
your **** guy.

---

There is a major difference between 16 volt batteries and quad coil subwoofers. 16 volt batteries were around long before quad coil subwoofers and are commercially available for a variety of applications. (most common is racing that I am aware of, but who knows what) These are products and charging systems brought over from other commercial industries and integrated into our market and potentially bringing additional manufacturer support along with them. Being both commercially avaialable, high profile at major events, and relatively cost effective upgrades, these all fit perfectly into a retail sales plan. Alternators and upgraded charging systems also fit into this plan.

In point of fact, there is absolutely no parallel or even similarity between QVC Subs and 16 volt batteries/charging systems. (and I love quad coil subs, I use them muself, but I can see many legitimate points which far outweight your concerns to this industry as a whole.

---

Regardless as to what industry the 16v bolts are available for they aren't an off the shelf item for car audio. How many of them have you sold at your shop?

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How many 8v1 Exides have we sold at our shop? About 300 over the last two years. I just sold 24 the day before USACi finals.

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And I bet they were for a street beater that this organization is suppoesedly trying to cater to with these up and coming rule changes and I bet they had never heard of a quad coil either

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Scott Christensen

Posts: 10752 | From: Victoria, TX | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Team Obsession:

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Originally posted by Back-2-Bassiks:

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Many believe that the sport has become so elitist, and the cost to remain competitive has become so high, that many competitors and retailers have simply given up because they feel that participation is pointless.

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Thus why I havent competed in the last 2 years since Ive moved out on my own, I just dont have $1000 for that 2500watt amp, or $800 for those killer subs anymore. My audio budget is about $400-$600/year...and I know many people can get things rolling for that amount thats good for them but I cant.

In Canada there is such a retarded mark-up on 90% of the products its not even funny let alone affordable. So for me to buy an amp I have to look online and with out knowing many people that have access to what I want or might need buying what I like is VERY expensive. For example for me to buy a D3 is about $900cnd or a Zapco CK-9.0 is about $1300cnd for me. So I just gave up on trying to compete since being competitive isnt in my budget.

I feel that if we start weeding out the non-street everyday use amps/subs/batterys/alts and have a class where the average Joe can excel without worring about Elite Bill and his super system it will open up the eys of many people who have been to scared to compete.

For example, I live in Calgary Alberta pop. 950,000 but at ANY of the given 5-8 sound offs we have in town during the year there is never more than 20 vechicals. The first show of the year there may be 30 or 40 but after all the average people get their asses handed to them by the elites in town then they dont even bother to come, and can you blame them? Would you pay $15-$25 when you KNOW your going to get roasted by the elites?

Long Story Short - Banning Quads = good first move in leveling the playing feild for everyone in the sport.

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And those 15-20 cars are now the same guys at every show.....

---

i wish the competition was tighter,i don't like to disourage newcomers by using huge power,and actually removed an amp from my car at three alberta shows.an amplifier cap of some kind in street would help to make a more level playing field. where system design would be more critical than having a large budget..i had to buy all of my amplifiers used to be competive,and can't afford the power that it would take to make #'s within what the top 8 did at finals.i went soley to have fun , and i did.i takes pride to enjoy being "spanked at an event". i understand the feeling of being new and would like newbees to be able to compete without the need to buy 4kw's or 9.0's. i think street should be resonably affordable,as this will determine the number of fresh faces that we'll see at future events. thank-you for providing us with this venue , i hope to see it grow . i thank all the people who support db drag and keep our competitions happening.
whatever you decide i will try my best to be at 2004 finals

--------------------
I'm thinking round....
http://www.termpro.com/asp/competitorstats.asp?Competitor_ID=25611&Season=2003

Posts: 72 | From: Calgary,Alberta,Canada | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Chris Dilbeck:

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How can you say everyone must be able to compete and then tell them they cant use the equipment they already have???

Ben

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Ben, that's simply ridiculous. They can still use the same equipment that they have as far as the subwoofer is concerned. A simple re-cone fee is all that is involved, possibly with the additional cost of shipping. But if they are running 8 amplifiers then they will have a few extra on their hands unless they are going to run mores subs so the cost of re-cone and ship will be offset by the potential sales of excess amplifiers.

---

But your forcing people to recone a sub that is perfectly OK.

People use quads in their daily cars cos it gives multiple wiring options. Reconing it to a DVC will limit these options and may mean them having to purchase new amps to get the same output

Ben

--------------------
Ben
-----
www.EastCoastChoons.co.uk
UK SS 1-2 NW Record Holder
Team UK - Team ECC - Team RE - Team DD

Posts: 2964 | From: Deepest Darkest Norfolk | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Ghost man:
If quads are going to be banned...them give up a season notice...like make 2004 the last season for quads in DB Drag and bann them for the '05 season......

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Now that sounds very reasonable to me.

Plus it leaves the posibility of seeing that quads arnt as big an as bad as people are making out and are actually just a diferent generation of subs.

Ben

--------------------
Ben
-----
www.EastCoastChoons.co.uk
UK SS 1-2 NW Record Holder
Team UK - Team ECC - Team RE - Team DD

Posts: 2964 | From: Deepest Darkest Norfolk | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                    

quote:

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Originally posted by Wayne Harris:
dB Drag Racing Affiliates,

First, I want to thank everyone for their input on dB Drag Racing and the thought that many of you have put forth with regards to the upcoming 2004 rules. Tension on the Audio Forum is always high whenever new rules are proposed or anytime a change takes place. I would ask that you consider all of the positive things that have taken place with respect to rules changes over the years. I hope you will agree that these changes have always been beneficial to the sport. I expect the same will be true this year as well.

This post is not about any specific rules changes that will take place in 2004. That will come in the next few days. Today, I want to talk about dB Drag Racing and the future of dB Drag Racing in the auto sound aftermarket.

First, you should know that I have been involved in the auto sound aftermarket for almost 20 years. I started as a competitor in 1984 and won the first ever national finals. Shortly thereafter, I became employed in the auto sound industry as an engineer. However, I have always maintained involvement with auto sound competition. This is truly what I love to do. I was involved in the initial formation of NACA, IASCA, and dB Drag Racing. I have been to almost every World Finals event since the very beginning. I cannot even fathom how many soundoff events I have attended over this period of time. I have attended CES each year for the past 20 years and I am in constant communication with the movers and shakers of the auto sound industry on a daily basis. I am telling you this because it is important that you understand that I LIVE in the auto sound aftermarket. I believe I have a good perspective of what the market is doing from every possible angle. Competitor, Retailer, and Manufacturer alike. With that being said, let me tell you how I feel about what is taking place in dB Drag Racing right now.

First, you may recall that dB Drag Racing is an Industry Support Organization. Our charter is to stimulate interest and participation in auto sound and auto sound competition. We hope to generate interest in auto sound by hosting sound off competitions. These events provide a place for auto sound enthusiasts to get together and compete against one another. This, in turn, stimulates the sale of auto sound products and it also exposes auto sound to spectators, who we hope will eventually get involved.

There are 3 critical elements that are required to make dB Drag Racing successful. These are the competitors who participate in the event, the retailer who hosts the show, and the auto sound manufacturers who subsidize the sport by sponsoring vehicles and participating at the dB Drag Racing World Finals. All three of these elements are crucial. Take away any one, and the sport will fail. Sometimes, competitors forget this simple fact. Let's take a look at the role each element plays.

Competitors purchase auto sound products. This is the motivating factor that drives the Retailers and Manufacturers to invest their time and money in support of dB Drag Racing. Competitors expose auto sound products to others. Again, this stimulates the sale of products. Competitors participate at events. Most competitors participate because of their love for auto sound and the fun they have at the shows.

Retailers host shows in an effort to sell product. By creating interest in auto sound, and by exposing auto sound competition to spectators, the retailer is hoping to recoup his investment at a future date. Retailers provide the arena where competitors get to play.

Manufacturers want to sell more product. If the retailer is doing well, then this will ultimately benefit the manufacturer. Manufacturers also sponsor competitors, sponsor shows, and support the dB Drag Racing Association by becoming members of the Association and exhibiting at the World Finals.

At the most fundamental level, retailers and manufacturers support dB Drag Racing in an effort to make money. It should be clear that the only way that this can happen is if the competitors participating in the sport are using products that the retailer sells and that the manufacturer makes. If a retailer can't sell the products that are being used, then what is the incentive for the retailer to host an event? The same is true for manufacturers.

I am convinced that we are heading down a path that will ultimately result in failure if we don't make some decisive changes to the rules for dB Drag Racing. Many believe that the sport has become so elitist, and the cost to remain competitive has become so high, that many competitors and retailers have simply given up because they feel that participation is pointless.

Fortunately, things haven't imploded yet. We still have an opportunity to put things back on track. The following list is what I believe must take place before that can happen.

First, we MUST insure that normal, everyday enthusiasts with everyday run-of-the-mill sound systems have a place to play. This is the only way we can grow. Our success requires new participation each and every year. The only way this will happen is if we offer classes that give these "real-world" systems a fair shake.

Secondly, we MUST insure that the products being used for competition are legitimate retail products.

Third, we MUST eliminate the remaining few loopholes in the rules so that ALL competitors have a fair chance.

I hope that this post helps to explain some of the issues that we are facing in dB Drag Racing and the auto sound industry as a whole. Please don't despair. I believe that dB Drag Racing is the paramount of auto sound competition. We had a great season last year and we are finally starting to garner major media coverage. But we cannot get complacent. We must address issues while we still have a chance. I hope that you will assist me in this endeavor.

---

Bah, don't care!
ever since i joined everytime a topic comes up that is along the lines of changes, i always voice my opinion how "street" should be Street, and for the Avg Joe Blow, Who can't afford mass equipment but is dependent on his install much more than his $$$ woofer & amp.

next time i see you at a compitition, (if you ever show up to a local comp ever again, maybe Jared JBSmooth will somehow get you to show) i'm really gonna have to pick you head about some things, now i'm not the kind of ignorant person to just say "F**K U" in person, especially in person, so you can be very confident in my intent to have a mature dicussion with you. But i doubt i'll ever see you again around Spokane/Post Falls/Coeur d'Alene.

both sides usually have some valid arguments, but recently the side drag seems to choose seems to be very much not of the opionin/side of the average joe that Drag is trying to attract.
I'm not the Average Joe, But i'm sure alot closer than you (Wayne H.) or most of the other people here are. I also prolly am in contact with more of the Target crowd (joe's) than you (wayne).

did you realize that alot of my friends(joe's) think i'm crazy for wanting a car that plays soo loud? and that i'm even crazier for wanting to make a Van with 1 seat and dual 15's in it?

Did you catch onto the fact that most of these people are completly happy with thier stock speakers & aftermarket cd player? And the ones that aren't have very limited budgets and normally are running cheaper equipment.... stuff like 100-200sub(s) and a small 1,000watt or smaller amp... oftentimes 500w or smaller.

and finally, that these people like to see outrageous installs that have 8 or more amps per sub that hit awesome #'s. BUT are affraid to compete in compititions cause there isn't a class JUST FOR THEM.


it is very appearant to me, that you don't have much contact with the future of Drag, Do you talk to the high schoolers that just installed dual 12's in a sealed box in thier garage/driveway cause they saw somebodies else's car go BOOM BOOM?
I really find it hard to believe that somebody can effectively run an organization thats trying to increase public awareness and popularity when they themselves don't know/ or seem to listen/care what the public(joe) wants.

so until you start taking some time to talk to "Joe" and really figure out what he wants, i don't think Drag will have any positive increase in popularity due to the rules and changes that YOU(wayne) are personally making

-Ryan Solberg
Darn Close to Average Joe
Resident of Greenacres, WA 99016
see you at the local comps

PS: i'm sad that you prolly will never even see this post, and if you do, prolly won't even read it, OR care.

--------------------
- I don't have a problem with people, its dumb people. So 90% of those who breathe i have trouble with.
- If beauty is only skin deep, then ugly goes all the way to the bone

Posts: 300 | From: Spokane, WA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                    

quote:

---

Originally posted by TalNLnky:
Bah, don't care!
ever since i joined everytime a topic comes up that is along the lines of changes, i always voice my opinion how "street" should be Street, and for the Avg Joe Blow, Who can't afford mass equipment but is dependent on his install much more than his $$$ woofer & amp.

next time i see you at a compitition, (if you ever show up to a local comp ever again, maybe Jared JBSmooth will somehow get you to show) i'm really gonna have to pick you head about some things, now i'm not the kind of ignorant person to just say "F**K U" in person, especially in person, so you can be very confident in my intent to have a mature dicussion with you. But i doubt i'll ever see you again around Spokane/Post Falls/Coeur d'Alene.

both sides usually have some valid arguments, but recently the side drag seems to choose seems to be very much not of the opionin/side of the average joe that Drag is trying to attract.
I'm not the Average Joe, But i'm sure alot closer than you (Wayne H.) or most of the other people here are. I also prolly am in contact with more of the Target crowd (joe's) than you (wayne).

did you realize that alot of my friends(joe's) think i'm crazy for wanting a car that plays soo loud? and that i'm even crazier for wanting to make a Van with 1 seat and dual 15's in it?

Did you catch onto the fact that most of these people are completly happy with thier stock speakers & aftermarket cd player? And the ones that aren't have very limited budgets and normally are running cheaper equipment.... stuff like 100-200sub(s) and a small 1,000watt or smaller amp... oftentimes 500w or smaller.

and finally, that these people like to see outrageous installs that have 8 or more amps per sub that hit awesome #'s. BUT are affraid to compete in compititions cause there isn't a class JUST FOR THEM.


it is very appearant to me, that you don't have much contact with the future of Drag, Do you talk to the high schoolers that just installed dual 12's in a sealed box in thier garage/driveway cause they saw somebodies else's car go BOOM BOOM?
I really find it hard to believe that somebody can effectively run an organization thats trying to increase public awareness and popularity when they themselves don't know/ or seem to listen/care what the public(joe) wants.

so until you start taking some time to talk to "Joe" and really figure out what he wants, i don't think Drag will have any positive increase in popularity due to the rules and changes that YOU(wayne) are personally making

-Ryan Solberg
Darn Close to Average Joe
Resident of Greenacres, WA 99016
see you at the local comps

PS: i'm sad that you prolly will never even see this post, and if you do, prolly won't even read it, OR care.

---

Posts: 988 | From: FLA | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged |