posted
Wayne doesn't "test" the waters very often.
I bet there is a very good chance Quads will be banned if some LARGE competitors or manufactures don't protest. If Wayne has made up his mind then its a done deal.
-------------------- ---Member of Team Gates---
Don't knock it, if you know nothing about it. Posts: 3071 | From: Okla USA | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by dB Don: Quads have more market value to the consumer and retailer than a dual coils. They simply offer alot more wiring options. So the whole "not good for the market" excuse is void. theres more to this story than we know I bet. But lets all just take it as it is and come back strong and play within the "intent" of the rules.
I couldnt agree more Don.
-------------------- 2005 Florida Street C Champion 2004 SBN Street C Champion 2004 SBN IDBL No Wall Champion 2003 NOPI Nats Street B Champion
posted
we can only hope.. Oki.. might want to keep him away from the keyboard a few more days just to let that many more competitors speak their minds on the issue...
i say keep quads....
why arent quads sold to consumers??? because the majority of installers at "Big Joe's radio shack" dont have a clue how to wire one up.. hell, many "installers" cant figure out dvc's.... otherwise, quads are a great idea....
honestly, if there is anyone out there who thinks this will make it easier for the low-mid level unsponsored competitors to compete i believe they are wrong... i worked hard, years to manage to finally get 8, completely stock non-16v stable, 1100 watt amps... if the class structure allows/ed i planned on putting all my resources towards dbdrag, quad and all... now even with a class structure change, i cannot be competitive in dbdrag.. shoot, with only 8800 watts, i will have no shot against people running single amps bigger than that...and when you say that people would run the monster amps in just as many numbers as they would run the smaller amps on quads... have you ever heard of power compression??? show me a sub that will be more than .5db louder running 30kw as opposed to running 15kw.. i want to see this incredible sub...
i hope this is just Wayne's unique way of testing his idea before a ruling comes down.
-------------------- Team Art of Noyze DiRtY SoUtH DEAF SqUaD Elemental Designs Representative 150+ Nissan pickup and 150+ Rex United States Marine Posts: 2110 | From: Atlanta,GA,USA | Registered: Dec 2000
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posted
The easiest and BEST way to make the classes more equal and fair would be to limit power...not coils.
Use the highest rated rms power of an aplifier to determine its class/classes.
Say... SS 1-2 has a set power limit, as does SS 3-4 and so on...
-------------------- Team Speakers Are Stupid
My friend said that my speakers are cooler than yours.... therefore I'm cooler than you are. Don't argue with me about it either. Posts: 2371 | From: Vegas | Registered: Mar 2001
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quote:Originally posted by TeamPSI: The easiest and BEST way to make the classes more equal and fair would be to limit power...not coils.
Use the highest rated rms power of an aplifier to determine its class/classes.
Say... SS 1-2 has a set power limit, as does SS 3-4 and so on...
Powerclasses have always been a pain in the ass, and present even more loopholes forcing competitors to spend more money and follow the "cheating" bandwagon to stay competitive... anyone else here remember the birth of the 225 HCCA?
Per Wayne's descriptions in that little chat transcript posted in the early pages on this thread, his intent isn't really to limit the power here anyway...
He had three points he was trying to address: 1) competitors feel like they have to purchase 8 amps per woofer, to stay competitive. 2) manufacturers don't really want to make quad-coil subs, as their main purpose is in competition, not street applications, limiting the audience who will purchase them. 3) competition classes need to exist that are attainable to the real-world competitor on a budget.
Banning quad coil subs isn't the answer. That is eliminating the symptom, not the cause.
Eliminating the cause would be to simply make a rule limiting the number of amplifiers a competitor could use, per woofer. Say, "4 amps per woofer."
If a competitor wants to strap them and drive a DVC sub, fine. If a competitor wants to use them independently on some quad-coil woofer... then what's the harm, based on Wayne's stated goals?
If there's no longer a demand for quad-coil subs in competition, and there truly is no demand for them on the street (as Wayne claims manufacturers are telling him), then they'll simply stop manufacturing them - of natural causes rather than making rules that directly cause their demise.
And it certainly will lead to competitors simply purchasing bigger amps to drive their subs with, regardless... because you are ignoring one very very simple and fundamental factor: competitors will find a way to drive as much power into a subwoofer as they can.
The smaller the number of amps required to do that, the more expensive it gets - on a dollars per watt basis. Now, this rule just became counterproductive to the goal of keeping it affordible for the competitor.
So we want to address that... And then you are back to the early 1990's again. Time to set up power classes, right? Here come the cheater amps...
WAYNE: I think this rule is definitely trying to ban a symptom, not ban the cause. You need to tackle the cause, or you'll miss your goals completely. If the goals you stated are truly it. Actions speak louder than words, I'm afraid. The man who has a vested interest in banning quad coil subwoofers would do so - directly. The man who has an interest in competitors, keeping things affordible, and helping the industry, would pursue those - directly.
PS - I definitely support the sentiment of "a change this radical should be given a year's notice"... Nicer: "beginning in 2005, quad-coil woofers won't be allowed any more." I just spoke with Scott Stoner, who's anticipating the arrival of some quad-coil Brahma Extremes. Nice to know he's fu*ked, isnt' it?
-------------------- -Chris E Better Audio VP/R&D Visit Car Audio Forum and Car Audio Talk for a new spin... Posts: 71 | From: Buffalo, NY | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
Wow. Has anyone else noticed that when the ideas about banning quads came out that no one has said anything about the Riley's van,SS 1 or street 1??
-------------------- Just some thoughts from a nobody. Posts: 3683 | From: Lakewood,Ohio | Registered: Aug 2003
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Will a bannig quads from dB Drag prevent that manufactures dont produce them anymore? In other organizations they are still allowed.(or not) So they will find a user. Prohibit around the world by law (hahahaha) and then there is no use for them anymore.
More questions :
Regarding the Riley´s van, I told the Rileys also in mail that I think the van is 100000% legal and ok FOR 2003 ! I think and hope these brothers understand me, that I am not against them, their work or their car. Its only a good and wellknown example for what I am trying to say !
SO: This kind of modified Super Street cars MUST BE STOPPED ! IMMIDIATELY ! This is more important than stupid quadcoils ! If a sells (or non sell) argument is more important than the securiness (word?) of a car, I must think about continuing (hey, just think about) because I dont want to build a "weapon on wheels" what endangers my environment ! And I dont want a "trailer queen" what is normally in a street class ! I think even my car is too dangerous at the moment ! But still ok. I drive it 1000s of miles to comeptiitons, no overload, just for world finals it was neccessary to trailer it. And I start to hate it to get places behind this kind of "look a like" cars, just because I hold on my philosophies. Some people are laughing about me because I am so "dumb" and so "over fair". I think it makes no sense anymore to preach some things I did. Who really cares about a car what is friven the hole season and plays music? (ok, even if there is just one person who understands this, its worth it...) In the past months I thought about building a strict to the rules (and I believe I have a more than strict to the rules and to the INTENTS car), go to, and maybe over the limits, just to find more db´s, and believe me, I already know some actions what will help the score. But then I will have such a "street useless" monster like anybody else who is louder than me... (please please understand that it is absolutely no offend against louder people than me !!!)
Cutted Concrete Basement Bombs should find a place JUST in extreme class. Even if Super Street is higher than Street, it is still a STREET ! Or call it "Super class"... If you trailer your car, ok, but it has to be 1000% street legal and secure ! And I mean around the WORLD ! Not just in America, where the regulations are not very hard. For example, when we cut a little piece of metal out of the area where the passengers are sitting, to make a hole in a trunk car for the port or so, we can loose our insurance when we have an accident, or come into a police control...
Address this issue first, than ban quads or whatever, and if you ban quads, please not from today to tomorrow ! Give all people MINIMUM a year "prewarning" ! Limit coils to two maximum on a sub from the year 2005, not 2004, THANK YOU !
Üüüühh!!! Michael (With our without quads still loud and good enough to make it around the world...)
Ps.: More about the industry. How much products are just designed for power buros? Tell me somebody who thinks a MTX RFL sounds good? Ok, there are maybe some people, its always a thing of personal taste... Dont we play in a sport what is going to be far away from the street conditions? Playing one note and having the microphone at a place where nobody in the world has its ears??? Not trying to bash db drag, you all know that I like it and the way it works, but then bringing this arguments of the street abilities and sales things up is not understandable ! And what is about the (sorry again) cheap crap digi amps? Raw power, but more distortion and signal to noise ratio than a jet engine? No, quad coils are just a step into a more flexible way to use and connect a woofer. Like dual coils ! You see somebody win with a quad, connected 16 Amps. Oh, you can buy such a sub and start with 1 small amp, connect it, save up money, buy one amp more... Until you have so much equipment like your idol ! Not possible when you see just 2 huge non affordable amps ! I think the industry MUST agree, or they are not good sales persons ! And please, it IS not just the Woofer issue, together with that is always the more expensive AMP issue ! Woofs and Amps belong together ! When do people begin to understand this?
posted
Well I ahve sat back and read what everyone has said from the start of this post and there are many pro's and con's to banning quads altogether. I for one am all for it, look at the class winners from finals. We ran duals for a while dual 1.5 ohm Treo CSX drivers and we were doing 159.0 with 2 Visonik V4000XD amps. Now at finals we were running quad 1 ohm coils with 8 V4000XD amps we only gained like 2 db and we more then quadrupled the power. Now we also built our quads the night before finals. I am not saying quads are not real loud but I am saying the same numbers are very acheivable with duals and less power it will just take more design then anything else. Not to p!ss anyone off just my 2 cents.
-------------------- Team Treo Image Dynamics sound performance team H/U: Alpine 7998 E/Q: Orion Concept 97.2 Fronts:Image Dynamics CD1 Pro HLCD's and Image CX62 mids. Subs: 3 Image Dynamics ID Max 12's Amps: Treo SSX 75.4 (fronts), 2 Treo SSX 750.1's (subs) Posts: 92 | From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by orionxtreme: Well I ahve sat back and read what everyone has said from the start of this post and there are many pro's and con's to banning quads altogether. I for one am all for it, look at the class winners from finals. We ran duals for a while dual 1.5 ohm Treo CSX drivers and we were doing 159.0 with 2 Visonik V4000XD amps. Now at finals we were running quad 1 ohm coils with 8 V4000XD amps we only gained like 2 db and we more then quadrupled the power. Now we also built our quads the night before finals. I am not saying quads are not real loud but I am saying the same numbers are very acheivable with duals and less power it will just take more design then anything else. Not to p!ss anyone off just my 2 cents.
If the same score is acheiveable with duals and half the amps then wtf does it matter if the next guy wastes his money on quads and twice as many amps?
-------------------- Team Speakers Are Stupid
My friend said that my speakers are cooler than yours.... therefore I'm cooler than you are. Don't argue with me about it either. Posts: 2371 | From: Vegas | Registered: Mar 2001
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quote: If the same score is acheiveable with duals and half the amps then wtf does it matter if the next guy wastes his money on quads and twice as many amps?
If you manufacture quads you know the answer to the question. Twice as much power will be louder and he recognized they were 2db louder by using more amps and quads.
I think if as some have said that more than 2 amps will be able to be strapped in the future then an amps limit would achieve better long term stability. Limit of 4 amps per woofer in each class SS and Extreme. Someone will cry out that Extreme should do whatever they want! Let's face it Extreme is where the manufacturers are dumping tons of amps and that is what Wayne is trying to lessen with the removal of quads. So make the amp limit for SS and Extreme.
Posts: 1674 | From: Michigan | Registered: Nov 2002
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posted
If you are going to ban quads Wayne, perhaps a stepwise progression over a time period should be followed?
In 2005 no quads in SS but allowed in extreme, then in 2006 none at all...
However I do think more serious things need to be addressed rather than quads. For starters a MUCH more detailed set of rules for Street (especially amp placement...lol) would be VERY nice.
Also a 100 (or more) question written test should be taken to be a certified judge with current contraversial decisions and rule infractions on it - the trickier the better.
The judges do a great job as it is, but doing this would help reaffirm uniformity.
(The reason I thought of this was due to an occurance at finals. After the relocation of my amps to a legal position as verified by dbSteve, I was staging when I was told second hand that my amps had to be below the window line even though they were not attached to the box. This is decidedly not the case as NONE of the other judges said this nor had a problem with them there...)
I dont know, however a uniform level of interpretation whose intent is to help improve certainly can't hurt.
-------------------- 2005 Florida Street C Champion 2004 SBN Street C Champion 2004 SBN IDBL No Wall Champion 2003 NOPI Nats Street B Champion
quote:Originally posted by Bumpin' Yota: Also a 100 (or more) question written test should be taken to be a certified judge with current contraversial decisions and rule infractions on it - the trickier the better.
Would this be a multiple choice test or an open book test.
-------------------- See you in the lanes,
dBSteve Get Loud Productions LLC Posts: 8436 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
This post is getting of topic and no one is going to read 9 pages and then post. Anymore comments, start a new thread.
Thanks.
-------------------- Bobby Riley Art's Sound Chamber
Fifteen time SPL World Champions-----26 SPL World Records DB Drag == IASCA == USACi == MECA Posts: 3484 | From: Retirement Village in Branson Missouri. | Registered: May 1999
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