posted
I spent a few days just scoping out the entry level installs at Best Buy ,CC,etc. I noticed that along with a typical Bolt/RF/Profile/Baja/ etc. entry level amp the installs had a typical clear bubble fuse holder with a 60 amp AGU fuse or in some cases a 60 amp maxi fuse and a number 8 power wire. So I went to several custom install shops and asked for a number 8 wire and sixty amp fuse and tried to run a: D3 =blown fuse. 4 KW Zapco= blown fuse. Crown/JBL = blown fuse. So far what I noticed is that you can not run a monster amp with a number 8 power wire and most importantly a single sixty amp fuse. So why not: Entry level class: CAR OFF. Single amp. Single sixty amp fuse. Number 8 power wire. Two twelves or a single 15 inch subwoofer.
But what if someone has a Zapco or other monster amp and enters the entry class? Off a single sixty amp fuse? NO, way,Jose. And it is a simple matter to verify if you have a sixty amp fuse and a number 8 power wire. Or you can have each competitor in entry class show the judge the fuse. And it takes a simple look see to check and a suspect fuse can be changed out on the spot in case a judge suspects some one is trying to be cute with a doctored fuse.
-------------------- You are what you read. Un happy with your life? Change what you read. Change what you are. Posts: 206 | From: Nobodys damn business but mine | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
Try and run a V4000xd on a single 8ga and 60 amp fuse it will burp before you blow the fuse.
In your idea will a blown fuse mean that you fail and need to rerun?Single fuse for entire show?
Who provides the fuses at a show?
Are you going to make everyone take out the fuse and put a different one in?
What type of fuseholder are you using?
Any other mods to the electrical system?
Can I run 2ga back to my amp rack and just run 8ga from my distro to the amp?
Can I still run a cap in thr class?What wiring is used to charge the cap?
Not to be troublesome but these are just the first questions that popped into my head and I can think if a lot more ways around the whole fusing issues if thats all thats going to make the class.
-------------------- Just some thoughts from a nobody. Posts: 3683 | From: Lakewood,Ohio | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
not to sound like an a** but there are ways around everything and someone will eventually find something. just my 2 cents.
-------------------- 1993 astro bagged on 22's team t3 audio team excessive amperage 06 sbn 3rd place bass race 140-149.9 06 sbn 4th place sm 1-2 06 wf 2nd place bass race 157.8 06 wf 6th place ss5+ 160.8
Posts: 906 | From: bainbrige, ga | Registered: Jun 2002
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fuses can be easily faked...you can do it in your own garage in about 5 minutes
next fuses dont blow at their rated...they can do at least 200% for long enough to burp
fuses are not all created equal....one might blow with 118 amps of current for 2 seconds and the next might blow with 138 amps of current for 3 seconds
Posts: 127 | From: Tulsa, OK | Registered: Oct 2002
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posted
Yes its been talked about before in a diffrent post. But thats why you would have a certifed fuse. From a certian company(s). Also how hard would it be to put a amp clamp on the power wire. Just like they test voltage now.
quote:Originally posted by wooferwagon: Also how hard would it be to put a amp clamp on the power wire. Just like they test voltage now.
We are planning in Finland this kind of ministreet classes. Classes names are : - Mini street A current 100A & musicenduro - Mini street B current 200A & musicenduro
Basic idea is offer class to normal street beatter how's don't have peak box or big amps. Limits in A can be something like this: - 1*15" or 2*12" or 3*10" - no amp limit - one battery in original place Limits in B can be something like this: - 1*18" or 2*15" or 4*12" or 6*10" - no amp limit - one battery in original place
Judging of lanes will be little bit harder than old time because before every round mic judges must install clamp meter to power wire. When enduro starts competitors play some music track from dbjams cd. When time is ended mic judges read the clamp meters. If current is under class limit there is no action but if current is more than class limit we make some subtraction. So that additional power don't make any effect to end score.
Here is that table what shows how much score will be subtracted in Mini street A current 100A & musicenduro class
105A-0,21db
110A-0,41db
115A-0,61db
120A-0.79db
125A-0,97db
130A-1,14db
135A-1,30db
140A-1,46db
145A-1,61db
150A-1,76db
155A-1,9db
160A-2,04db
165A-2,17db
170A-2,3db
175A-2,43db
180A-2,55db
185A-2,67db
190A-2,79db
195A-2,9db
200A-3,01db
Here is some example. Competitor A plays 140.0db and current reading is 90A Competitor B plays 142.0db and current reading is 180A
Competitor A end score is 140.0db but Competitor B end score is 142.0db-2.55db=139.45db So Competitor A is winner.
advantages: + Almost everybody can compete because there is not any strict amp rule + There is not big benefit if you have some Panda and crazy band bass box because playing material is music track and measuring style is enduro. + If you have big monster amp it don't help you because extra current will decrease your score
disadvantages: - two clamp meters is needed - Extra work to mic judges because those clamp meters but install before every round.
That is quite hard to explain but that kind of ministreet class we are planning to use.
-------------------- -Life begins after 175 db- 4.1 dB's over the goal Posts: 796 | From: Finland | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
And clamp meters are easy to use. And number 8 power wire means all the way to the amp. No caps or bat caps. I tossed out the sixty amp figure due to it being a typical install. But if a sixty amp fuse can let you burp a big amp. Then set the limit to a thirty amp blade fuse. Or a twenty amp blade fuse. Whatever will let you burp a 600 to 1000 watt amp and still blow if some one trys to burp with a monster amp. My fav. so far is a 15 amp mini blade fuse for entry level. But I mentioned the sixty amp fuse due to my playing music with a sixty amp fuse and a monster amp and it blew. But if you really want to run out the monster amps out of entry level then set the limit to a single ten amp bladed mini fuse. Single amp. Number 8 power wire all the way to the amp. Car off. No caps or batt caps. Judge at the show hands out the mini fuse holder and fuse. Even at twenty bucks entry fee per contestant .,a 45 cent fuse and holder will not kill the show. They do sell them in bulk. And it makes it easy to add a single drop of nail polish to identify the fuse before the show and cuts down on doctored fuses. And it makes it easy to check compliance with a rule. My fav. is really a power limiter that only permits 60 amps of current to get to the amp. (it works kind of like the battery buddy in that it only permits 60 amps out of the batt.). With a power limiter mandatory in entry then the big amps go away just like they did with the car off rule. But,a power limiter is going to cost close to 150 bucks ,so,until there is a price drop the best that I can do is request a power fuse limit. Any one for burping with a FIVE AMP FUSE? Ok,so I am really down with kicking out the monster amps.
-------------------- You are what you read. Un happy with your life? Change what you read. Change what you are. Posts: 206 | From: Nobodys damn business but mine | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
Not to be rude but so far your ideas have been pretty far fetched. First it was the 2lb rule, which most cd players would outweigh the amp. Now its 8 gauge wire, why not just make it a Flea market class. Anything that cant be bought at flea markets cant be run in street, let pyramid and kenford take over db drag.
Rules need to stay like they are maybe do the street and pro street idea that seems to be getting alot of attention. You are wanting to do things that would limit the use of most any class d amp. These are the amps that most people buy to run their subs in true street situations. Id like to see it limited to (however it needed to be worded) that the 4kw could be used in street b and not in street a whatever that boils down to in channels or boards or whatever. Now would that open the door for the crown? Probably but what can ya do that would be easy enough for judges to enforce in a timely matter?
quote:Originally posted by Navidriver: Not to be rude but so far your ideas have been pretty far fetched. First it was the 2lb rule, which most cd players would outweigh the amp. Now its 8 gauge wire, why not just make it a Flea market class. Anything that cant be bought at flea markets cant be run in street, let pyramid and kenford take over db drag.
Rules need to stay like they are maybe do the street and pro street idea that seems to be getting alot of attention. You are wanting to do things that would limit the use of most any class d amp. These are the amps that most people buy to run their subs in true street situations. Id like to see it limited to (however it needed to be worded) that the 4kw could be used in street b and not in street a whatever that boils down to in channels or boards or whatever. Now would that open the door for the crown? Probably but what can ya do that would be easy enough for judges to enforce in a timely matter?
Not exactly. I only advocate the flea market brands for use in entry level. Why? Money. Not to be rude but you folks seem to be missing the basic point that a system cost's money and most entry level systems are not a huge class D amp and they are not 4 quad coil 18 inch diameter subwoofers. And please go take a look at a Best buy store or equivalent and you will see a preponderance of basic entry level systems installed in vehicles. I am sorry if I sound rude but I am tired of hearing folks telling me that it is going to end up being an entry level at the flea market cost point. The point that you folks seem to be missing is that the average kid on picking the first system does not go: Hmmmmmmm. Yeah. Two D3 amps. Four DD subs. Number Zero wire.
That is what they whish for. But,let's get real for a sec. Most kids that buy an entry level system do not have the bucks,period These kids mow lawns and do odd jobs until they scrape some 350 to 500 dollars and then they go buy a system. They go to: Best buy,CC or an equivalent level store. Yes,some do go to a flea market.
And I am really missing the point on the subject of if you have a D3 and want to find some way to play in entry level.
And the two pound limit as an example: When we start out to make a payload pack for a mission the most important concern is that the payload has to do all of the mission specifications and sill fall inside the weight limit performance envelope. At ten grand per pound it gets very expensive to have a under efficient payload.
Turning to the amp issue it means that for a given weigt or cubic centimeter limit : You must choose from a limited amount of options for a given specification. In other words there is a tradeoff. Until you hit the limit and you can no longer improve the performance for the given specs. So if you state that the limit will be : 350 cubic inches or w times ht times length or weight limit equals X. Or fuse must be ten amps. These are the performance specs that the delivered product has to fall into. At a given point you hit a performance wall. Simple as that.
-------------------- You are what you read. Un happy with your life? Change what you read. Change what you are. Posts: 206 | From: Nobodys damn business but mine | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
what about the newbie (this is what were talking about)...who have class AB amps from kenwood, jvc, etc...that are not very efficient
what if average joe has 4 guage wire installed by the dealer for a 1,000 watt amp...which is what it should be
certified fuses....you can take apart fuses and fake them...clamp mater...so you now need 3 judges...one to watch both meters and one at the computer
limit fuses to 20A or 30A....haha, well that will allow me to daily drive with highs...but no sub amps...nice
at what point do we just say its about getting loud and not for someone that doesnt want to put in any work, spend any money, go to shows and try to be competitive
Posts: 127 | From: Tulsa, OK | Registered: Oct 2002
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posted
What you are missing is that if the average person can't afford the equiptment to be competitive then why are we making a class that they can go to finals in?
Do you realize how much finals weekend is going to cost?
We will have an entire field of competitors invited to finals and no one that can afford to go.
If you want to compete with 8ga wire then stay in mini-street
-------------------- Just some thoughts from a nobody. Posts: 3683 | From: Lakewood,Ohio | Registered: Aug 2003
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Patrick Wilson
unregistered
posted
I put up a 143.3dB new termlab on my 8 gauge wire.
quote:Originally posted by Navidriver: Not to be rude but so far your ideas have been pretty far fetched. First it was the 2lb rule, which most cd players would outweigh the amp. Now its 8 gauge wire, why not just make it a Flea market class. Anything that cant be bought at flea markets cant be run in street, let pyramid and kenford take over db drag.
Rules need to stay like they are maybe do the street and pro street idea that seems to be getting alot of attention. You are wanting to do things that would limit the use of most any class d amp. These are the amps that most people buy to run their subs in true street situations. Id like to see it limited to (however it needed to be worded) that the 4kw could be used in street b and not in street a whatever that boils down to in channels or boards or whatever. Now would that open the door for the crown? Probably but what can ya do that would be easy enough for judges to enforce in a timely matter?
Not exactly. Two D3 amps. Four DD subs. Number Zero wire.
Most people in street this year had at least 2 + and 2 - 0ga wires running to the back of the vehicle, I saw a street A car (Eric Coulter) with 4 (+) and 4 (-) 0ga wires running to the back of his explorer. What about people who like overkill? I ran a single 200 watt amp for my first system and I ran 4ga power wire for it. I had 0ga for a single 1000d, does that mean my car wasn't a daily driver and a normal "street" vehicle?
-------------------- "A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history--with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila." - unknown
quote:NDMstang65 (9:54:55 PM): scottie gagged me once...
Posts: 7989 | From: Camdenton, Missouri, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I have dual 1/0 wires ran to the bed of my truck... and a quartet of 4 ga. wires ran to the frame... I've got a big battery crammed into the tray... I've got giant monster amps...
But I'm still not loud ... give these guys some credit! All they are doing is squeaking a few 10ths of a dB here and there... bar none they would still be louder with less power...
-------------------- www.IMAGEdynamicsUSA.com "I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal." - Ron Burgundy Posts: 495 | From: The "O.C." | Registered: Jan 2003
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