posted
I can remove my 3rd seat in my Suburban because it has factory latches that make this possible. I however cannot fold my rear seat in my Honda Odyssey down into the well and place my enclosure there, even though it was meant to be folded to carry more cargo.
Some will say:
quote:Originally posted by Sid Grice: The ability to fold seats, to carry excess cargo, is not the normal operation but rather an altered operation of the vehicles' purpose.
So, once a seat has been folded, it no longer usable for the normal operation of a vehicle.
but I disagree.
What about for a 2004 Ford Freestar?
2004 Ford Freestar Ford drops the Windstar and introduces the Freestar in 2004.
Standard Features,. The third-row bench folds into the floor—a Ford first. In addition, the third-row bench also flips backward for rear-facing seating .
I think this rule really needs to be re-worded/re-worked to allow rear cargo areas to be used in either way, A seat or More cargo space.
posted
A passenger vehicle is designed to carry passengers. Even though the manufacturers are trying to keep up with truck sales, by allowing the alteration of an interior to allow more cargo space, the normal (non altered) state is for all seats to be in the secured and upright position.
quote:Originally posted by dBSteve: I do understand this is rules dicusion for 2004. That was my 4 1/2 cents [/QB]
Thats the only reason I'm bringing it up. Wayne has changed rules in the past and I think this one needs looking at.
There are tons of competitors with families that drive Mini-Vans (Not just for soccer Moms) that have systems in them that could compete in a Street class.
quote:Originally posted by Sid Grice: [QB] A passenger vehicle is designed to carry passengers. Even though the manufacturers are trying to keep up with truck sales, by allowing the alteration of an interior to allow more cargo space
Exactly why this rule needs to be looked at!
Mini-Vans are not going away and are being made to not only carry passengers but if needed, More Cargo also.
quote:Originally posted by dBSteve: what Wayne has said is law.
This is a huge problem. How can all local comps know about a rule if it is not in the rule book.
The only rules that should stand in the dBDRA should be those written in the rule book. They should be outlined correctly in the book and not changed at whim during the season.
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quote:Originally posted by dBSteve: what Wayne has said is law.
This is a huge problem. How can all local comps know about a rule if it is not in the rule book.
The only rules that should stand in the dBDRA should be those written in the rule book. They should be outlined correctly in the book and not changed at whim during the season.
This rule hasn't been changed in over 2 years. You can't count on local shows to go by the rule book. Several retailers that host their own shows im sure haven't read the rule book. You can not count on these locals shows to give you the info you need.
By going to a certified show is when you get a good taste of the rules.
-------------------- See you in the lanes,
dBSteve Get Loud Productions LLC Posts: 8436 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Originally posted by *1LOWSUV*: "Operative Words" is why the rule needs to be looked at. In the dBdrag dictionary, operative words means "Grey Area"
LOL. The term operative is not opaque. However, you have touched on a topic that could be addressed. Instead of rewriting the rule, why not just add a definition (in the definition section of the rule book) so that everyone understands the term "normal operations",
posted
IMO...since the 3rd seat is for the most part and option in mini vans and suvs if it can be folded out of the way or removed it should count like the jump seats in a mini ex cab truck....there is a rule written just for those ....why cant there be one written just for these???
-------------------- Team TAZM Team Gates Exotic Dreamz Car Club Team Cartunes
Post count means nothing... P.S. I can't spell.. Posts: 2703 | From: Bradford, PA | Registered: Aug 2001
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The_dew2000
unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by Sid Grice: so that everyone understands the term "normal operations",
Everyone understands the real definition of normal operation. dBDRA uses it incorrectly. Normal operation of a folding seat is folded or unfolded, defined by most manuals, manufactures, and users. The dBDRA should use a new choice of words instead redefining existing words.
If the dBDRA doesn't want seats folded, then it should say "no seats folded" in the rules.
Under current abomination of the words: Normal operation of a vehicle is not for dB Drag Racing, so vehicles are illegal in street.
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quote:Originally posted by The_dew2000: Everyone understands the real definition of normal operation. dBDRA uses it incorrectly. Normal operation of a folding seat is folded or unfolded, defined by most manuals, manufactures, and users. The dBDRA should use a new choice of words instead redefining existing words.
If the dBDRA doesn't want seats folded, then it should say "no seats folded" in the rules.
Under current abomination of the words: Normal operation of a vehicle is not for dB Drag Racing, so vehicles are illegal in street.
The current rule states...
quote:Competitors who fold their seats must be able to demonstrate that the installation of the sound system does not interfere with the normal operation of the seats that were folded.
You claim that dB Drag Racing incorrectly defines the term. So, as a trial effort, lets use your definition. You claim the definition should be "folded or unfolded". If a seat must have the ability to be folded or unfolded to be considered normal operation, then how can placing something (such as a speaker enclosure) allow the seat to be unfolded? By your own definition, allowing audio equipment to impede the seat from being unfolded, still remains in violation of the rules. Even if someone wanted to attempt mounting the enclosure the the back of the seat (so that it moves as the seat is being folded or unfolded), there are other rules that would prevent the enclosure from moving infront of the rear door.
quote:Originally posted by Sid Grice: so that everyone understands the term "normal operations",
Everyone understands the real definition of normal operation. dBDRA uses it incorrectly. Normal operation of a folding seat is folded or unfolded, defined by most manuals, manufactures, and users. The dBDRA should use a new choice of words instead redefining existing words.
If the dBDRA doesn't want seats folded, then it should say "no seats folded" in the rules.
Under current abomination of the words: Normal operation of a vehicle is not for dB Drag Racing, so vehicles are illegal in street.
The fact of the matter is, you are just taking stabs into thin air trying to pull something out of your a$$. You know what the rule means, I know what the rule means, WE ALL KNOW WHAT THE RULE MEANS! Please drop it, because we both know you are wrong.
-------------------- "A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history--with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila." - unknown
quote:NDMstang65 (9:54:55 PM): scottie gagged me once...
Posts: 7989 | From: Camdenton, Missouri, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
What really needs to be added to the rules is a statement that allows for a "special exemption" for vehicles that have more than 2 rows of seats.
The "folding seat" and "normal operation" matters were not intended to apply to 3rd row seats. That verbiage was added to the rules to make sure that competitors do not place woofer boxes, amp racks, or a battery in a location that would interfere with the folding 2nd row seats of many vehicles.
I hope Wayne reads this thread and amends the verbiage in the rules. I, for one, have never imagined that the "folding seat" and "normal operation" rules were ever meant for enforcement of 3rd row seating.
-------------------- Andrew Harper
2002 STREET 3-4 6th Place World Finals 2003 Street B 2nd Place Spring Break Nationals Posts: 1702 | From: Vero Beach, FL | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
They simply clarified a gray area with the rule for mini-trucks. I would guess there was previously a problem, and the part about jump-seats was added to CLARIFY what the intent of the rule was.
-------------------- "A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history--with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila." - unknown
quote:NDMstang65 (9:54:55 PM): scottie gagged me once...
Posts: 7989 | From: Camdenton, Missouri, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I know the new Toyota Sienna has the seats you are talking about.
How about a clause in the rules that states if the seats have the FACTORY option of being folded BELOW the plane of the floor it should be treated as if they are not there. I know when these seats are folded the floor IS COMPLETLY FLAT. JUST like my van with no back seat. Obviously when they designed them to fold LEVEL with the floor it was NOT intended to be used by passengers while in this position.
Do we want more cars in street.......yes Less of a CRX ONLY class.............yes Do you expect this to "magically" happen..... I say try one year of putting the rules back so vans can slide boxes up to the b pillar....the result will more than likely be an increased class. Why........everyone has a VAN.....they are cheap and you can sleep in them and more people can fit into one and HELL you get the point!
-------------------- T3 Audio H.O. Alternators Team Soundstream 06 NW Champion
Posts: 2463 | From: A gravel pit in Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Why are certain people making this a personal mission to shoot this idea down?
I'm not asking for rules to be made to accomodate my vehicles or rules "So I can win".
I'm just asking whats the difference when I can remove my backseat in my Suburban (Because it has factory latches) and put the enclosure there and folding a seat down FLAT that was also designed to do so?
The whole idea here is these are factory options in most vans out there and I think the rule for "No Enclosures On Seats" was meant for cars.
This is supposed to be a 2004 rules discussion and rear seats are going to be a major thing as far as which of my vehicles I'll be using this year.
posted
I agree 100 percent with you!!!!!!!!!! I work in a dealership that sells Siennas. I know what the "intent" of the folding seats is.....that's why I agree.
-------------------- T3 Audio H.O. Alternators Team Soundstream 06 NW Champion
Posts: 2463 | From: A gravel pit in Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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