posted
Sorry if this offends anyone but I believe there are valid reasons for each.
1. Seating must be in front of the door jambs.
2. Woofer loading baffles etc. must be behind the door jambs.
3. Center consoles must be a maximum of 30%(?) of the width of the passenger compartment. (Passenger compartment is measured at the shortest distance between the inside surfaces of the door panels).
4. NO MORE QUAD COILS!!!! (not even in the extreme classes) Quad coils have no practical use outside of competition. 8 amplifiers per woofer adds up real quick. With less amplifiers needed per woofer it would be easier to fill the haigher woofer classes. I know that most subwoofer manufacturers would rather not make Quad coils.
5. It won't happen but... 2 sensors, one on either side of the windshield and averaged. Now you're talking LOUD not just "focused"
quote:Originally posted by -Chris McSweyn-: Sorry if this offends anyone but I believe there are valid reasons for each.
1. Seating must be in front of the door jambs.
2. Woofer loading baffles etc. must be behind the door jambs.
3. Center consoles must be a maximum of 30%(?) of the width of the passenger compartment. (Passenger compartment is measured at the shortest distance between the inside surfaces of the door panels).
4. NO MORE QUAD COILS!!!! (not even in the extreme classes) Quad coils have no practical use outside of competition. 8 amplifiers per woofer adds up real quick. With less amplifiers needed per woofer it would be easier to fill the haigher woofer classes. I know that most subwoofer manufacturers would rather not make Quad coils.
5. It won't happen but... 2 sensors, one on either side of the windshield and averaged. Now you're talking LOUD not just "focused"
-------------------- Quietest member of Broken Silence Competition Club
Posts: 1587 | From: Springfield, MO | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
I agree with everything, except the quad coil removall. I don't make subs anymore but I do know that there is little if any gain from a quad coil so I would allow them. If people want to spend the money on more amps then thats why its called extreme. limiting the coils to 4 per sub is good enough though.
But if I were a manufacture who was giving out amps I would rather support a dual coil competitor, way less amps to give out.
-------------------- -Donald Hebig
-Saskatchewan dB Drag event promoter Posts: 1961 | From: Borden, Saskatchewan. Canada | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Originally posted by -Chris McSweyn-: 4. NO MORE QUAD COILS!!!! (not even in the extreme classes) Quad coils have no practical use outside of competition. 8 amplifiers per woofer adds up real quick. With less amplifiers needed per woofer it would be easier to fill the haigher woofer classes. I know that most subwoofer manufacturers would rather not make Quad coils.
Yeah, I agreed wit hall of those but this one.
This rule was brought up last year, and it was decided that street cars can have a maximum of 2 coils.
As far as Extreme and SS go, those cars alone have very little practical use outside of competitions, I see more quads daily than I do 10,000 lb vehicles driving down the street with plexi windows.
There are FAR too many people running quads at this point in the game to eliminate them, and it would end up with a few hundred upset people having to recone equipment, or worse, sell it to a market that is simply not there.
-------------------- Team Riprock 2 Posts: 188 | From: Calgary, Alta, CANADA | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I know that I have thought about making a jump to a SS5+ class, but would not be able to afford the power required to be competitive. I actually spoke with several competitors this weekend in regards to how nice it was to have power classes back in the day and how it seemed like more competitors were in those classes due to the restrictions enabling for better competition. Wow, that was a mouthful. lol Chris's idea in regards to eliminating quad coils would indeed lower the amp count and in "SOME" cases reduce the power required to make the jump. Can we get input from some of the current SS5+ competitors? I would like to see their opinions on this issue before classes are eliminated/reduced due to low volume of competitors. I honestly believe competitors would flock to the bigger classes if quad coils were bannished. This would also help manufacturers as Chris stated above. Recones would be less complicated to locate with only duals being fabricated.
****IMPORTANT**** I would also like to see the voltage issue addressed. It is unfortunate when a competitor is in the lanes with amps on and voltage at 17, burps and drops to 13 or so, switches off system and alts kick in to recharge depleted batts thus pushing voltage over 18volts. Since the measureing devices used at finals are set for peak hold, they show that the competitor was over the 18volt limit, thus resulting in a DQ even though they burped well below the limit. I know that this has happened atleast once per year at finals for the past 3 years. It is unfortunate to see even a single DQ due to this situation and I'd like to see a rule set in place to protect the competitors in these situations. I realize you could run through with the vehicle off and not have to worry about this ever happening, but some competitors use their alts in the lanes to maintain voltage etc. Thank you for your time.
posted
"Extreme cars must have a dash and it must be flat. (Better wording would be required, of course.)"
How about adding a width measurement to it. Say 5" or so minimum to help eliminate "mic pockets"
Another thing to add is only having quads in extreme, and geting rid of ss9+ and ex9+ (due to the low attendence)so you can make more classes at the lower level. A monster class would be sweet too, anything goes and only for finals.
-------------------- Mike and Mark Rip_Rock@shaw.ca
posted
I like the idea of multiple mics and avg reading from both sides of the car. I think that it would be a much harder oblective to work towards.
I just feel that this should be like a deathmatch type of thing tho as it would slow down judging at many shows due to the need to have 2 mics in the car at the same time.
This would also allow people to either build for a traditional mic set-up or for avg mic set-up
-------------------- Just some thoughts from a nobody. Posts: 3683 | From: Lakewood,Ohio | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Mike_Stiers: ****IMPORTANT**** I would also like to see the voltage issue addressed. It is unfortunate when a competitor is in the lanes with amps on and voltage at 17, burps and drops to 13 or so, switches off system and alts kick in to recharge depleted batts thus pushing voltage over 18volts. Since the measureing devices used at finals are set for peak hold, they show that the competitor was over the 18volt limit, thus resulting in a DQ even though they burped well below the limit. I know that this has happened atleast once per year at finals for the past 3 years. It is unfortunate to see even a single DQ due to this situation and I'd like to see a rule set in place to protect the competitors in these situations. I realize you could run through with the vehicle off and not have to worry about this ever happening, but some competitors use their alts in the lanes to maintain voltage etc. Thank you for your time.
It's the competitors responsibility to take care of things like that, you can either remove the leads yourself, or simply ask the judge to do it before you turn of your amps. We ran thru with our alt on, after burping, we just made sure that the judge had the meter off the batteries before we turned the amps off.
As far as extreme dashes, I think that they should be flat, with a minimum width. Consoles should only take up a certain percentage of the total width of the cabin, say 25-30%. I also think everything including loading baffles, should go behind the b-pillar. If we continue to let things like this be pushed, the next thing you know, we will have loading baffles that go floor to ceiling, right in front of the windshield.
-------------------- "A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history--with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila." - unknown
quote:NDMstang65 (9:54:55 PM): scottie gagged me once...
Posts: 7989 | From: Camdenton, Missouri, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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perhaps even a rule "interiors must resemble oem dash structure and shape" so there arent center consoles that take up the entire vehicle and odd looking mic traps etc.
-------------------- Greg Piper -2002 Mich. Points Champion (172) -2002 dB Drag World Finalist (SS9+) -1997 Ford F-150 -1985 Chevy Astro van Posts: 3019 | From: Houghton MI | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
If my console rule were to pass it would also need the following:
*No part of a vehicle's doors (including any door build-outs)shall protrude more than 8in(?) into the vehicle's interior (measured from the outer edge of the door sill).
*windows may be a maximum total of 3in thick.
As for the "flat dash" rule....I think it should go more like this:
**Vehicles must have a minimum flat horizontal surface of 6in that can be measured along the dash. The height difference of this surface between the highest point on the driver's side and the lowest point on the passenger's side may not be more than 8in(?)
posted
At first I was for these ideas but am slowly changing my mind against them.
I already stated my reasons for quads, and am pretty set on that. And just an addition to that, in regards to 5+ setups, you'll find eventually there is no more room for amplifiers and the option of only running 2 or 4 per amp becomes the only one available.
As far as the 2 sensor setup goes, I think it's almost a good idea, but from a retailer/promoter aspect, it hurts. For starters, the TermLab USB could no longer be used because it only allows for 2 sensors at once. Secondly anyone using the old mics (which are still currently legal for single pointers) becomes obsolete and many of those retailers would just opt to not hold shows rather than drop a couple of G's just on equipment to meter them.
Now for the arguments towards consoles, loading baffles, dash boards, etc.
What I'm seeing is a trend towards ideally making the only difference between Super Street and Extreme being that in Super Street you keep the stock interior, and in Extreme you take that out to make an exact replica out of something harder. Where is the creativity in that? Making sound pockets, consoles that direct sound, and wave guiding is what extreme is all about! Without that you're a super street vehicle with plexi glass windows.
Perhaps the consoles had gotten a little out of control, but in some peoples eyes, Extreme is already so irrational, that it is no longer a car, but a box on wheels. I'm cool with a box on wheels, so long as it drives and seats 2 people (albeit very uncomfortably) then it's a car and should be allowed. Otherwise every extreme car is going to look the same, and he with the most power wins.
-------------------- Team Riprock 2 Posts: 188 | From: Calgary, Alta, CANADA | Registered: Feb 2001
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quote:Originally posted by A-Rok: Making sound pockets, consoles that direct sound, and wave guiding is what extreme is all about!
6-1 Sound producing devices must not interfere with the measurement equipment. This includes, but is not limited to; horns, wave-guides, vents, or other devices that are deliberately placed in close proximity to the microphone capsule. (Intent: Nothing shall interfere with the measurement equipment.)
-------------------- Greg Piper -2002 Mich. Points Champion (172) -2002 dB Drag World Finalist (SS9+) -1997 Ford F-150 -1985 Chevy Astro van Posts: 3019 | From: Houghton MI | Registered: Oct 2000
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The intent of these devices in the cabin is not to interfere with the sensor in such a way as to cheat by persuading the sensor in very close proximity, but rather to get louder via directing the wave from the beginning. Technically the entire objective is to interfere with the sensor, this would be the elastic movement of air refered to as a sound wave.
If that rule were to eliminate the words "close proximity" then technically everyone with a port should be disqualified for trying to change the pressure of the air at different points in the interior.
Please note, I am not refering to interfering with the microphone, I am refering to adjusting your cabin shape so as to further enhance your enclosures ability. Otherwise we might as well all go back to either sealed walls.
posted
The purpose of those rules are to eliminate some of the grey areas that people are starting to play in. I'm not saying to eliminate loading walls just make sure they are behind the door jamb. If we don't set guidlines you will start to see more and more consoles that go all the way across the cabin with tunnels that you can sit in. The idea of the extreme class was to be able to strengthen the interior not to eliminate it.
Do you really think that Superiors car is loud? I would argue that it is just focused. They did a great job at playing in the grey areas of the rules and manupulating the wave towards the mic; but is that the same as making a car actually loud?
that looks like a wave guide to me, and a HUGE pocket near the mic...
Not having actually seen this vehicle but how does someone sit on the passenger side of that vehicle?
Not to the rest of Chris' suggestions. I'm all for them and here's my thoughts on them.
1. Even in an extreme vehicle, the interior is supposed to somewhat represent a normal vehicle.
2. Loading baffles are and should be considered part of the enclosure and therefore should have to comply with the string test.
3. The sizes and shapes of some of the consoles in extreme are getting way out of hand. (see picture above)
4. As A-Rok stated quads have little to no market outside of competition, therefore why force a manufacturers to make something that they have to have large enough quantities to be commercially available if it's not in their best interest.
5. The dual sensor set-up would be great to have and here is how I would propose it. At multi-point events (2x, 3x, and Finals) use the dual sensors to get a averqge score in the vehicle which would then become it's certified score. Single point events could continue to use the systems they have.
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