posted
There has been very passionate debate over the "move-up" rule. Some want to keep it and others say it serves no purpose.
If you are one of those affected by this rule, (you have received an invitation to the World Finals in years past), can you elighten us on why you don't want to move up?
With a better understanding of this issue, we may be able to create a new class that addresses your concerns.
Your input is greatly appreciated.
-------------------- "Keep it Loud and Make me Proud!"
posted
Since the move up rule is ineffective and does not work..it is unneeded......and if you combind EX9-12 & 13+ this will give us room for one more street class...as i stated a few times in the other threads we could add a 1 woffer street class instead of having mini street....this would effectivly divide the street "pros" between 3 street classes. There are only so many of those 4kwt amps so yes they may take the top spots but as Eric has shown us they are not needed to fight for 1st in street class......also a limmit on the number of amps & batts in NW would drop the #'s in that class a bit and make it more of a transition class between street and superstreet......someone mentioned haveing People in NW have to leave one seet in the car durring compitition.....since it is a step up from street class i feel this would also be a great idea....
-------------------- Team TAZM Team Gates Exotic Dreamz Car Club Team Cartunes
quote:Originally posted by Wayne Harris: If you are one of those affected by this rule, (you have received an invitation to the World Finals in years past), can you elighten us on why you don't want to move up?
quote:Originally posted by Ghost man: There are only so many of those 4kwt amps so yes they may take the top spots but as Eric has shown us they are not needed to fight for 1st in street class
No they are not needed but a D3 cost some $$ too, and try finding those as well.
The bottom line is that if Street was meant to be a begining class then the rule needs to stay, if it isn't meant to be a begining class then it needs to be removed, but this whole thing about the mini class is bull, it is only for 1 woofer, how many people only have 1 woofer? not to mention if you can't earn points, you can't go to finals, what the hell are you working towards? I thought we wanted this sport to grow? I thought Wayne wanted to get more people into this sport? It's not going to happen if there is nothing to work towards.
I think that I have said too much....................I must go now................the SPL Ninja's are upon me Need more power? UP YOURS!! with Excessive Amperage! Posts: 6070 | From: Northern California | Registered: Nov 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
This maybe long and things that you have heard before so bare with me but I think it will give you the answer(s) you are looking for from someone that the rule will actually affect next year, I'll try to keep it as short as possible.
1.I would love to move up to Super Street but it seems to me that almost everyone that is competitive in Super Street and Extreme is either sponsored and pays close to nothing (or nothing) for their equipment, or is older, has been doing this for years, or has an actual steady paying job to allow them to afford to be competitive in those classes. Lets be real here, money is a big issue and while I paid $3000 dollars for an amp in the street class this year(which cost more than my car, subs, wiring, and batteries combined), that is nothing compared to the minimum of 8 amps(full price) I would have to buy next year, not to metion another vehicle, 20+ batteries, and larger more expensive woofers. Fortunately for me I have money to afford these things if I am forced to go into debt next year to move up, but for the most part street is filled with younger college students who do not get a full athelitic scholarship like I do and have to pay for housing, school, bills, etc. So in other words if you let them compete in the street class which allows them to be involved in dbdrag and after one year tell them okay now you have to spend 5 times as much when they have already gone into debt over the street class most will say forget it and just watch next year. I and a few others would not be that way but for the most part that is how it would be.
2. Most people are afraid of failur it seems to me(even for street class) and the thought of building something that will take alot more time and effort I think scares them. A street vehicle is very easy to understand and build and seems like a much more enjoyable process for most people I know and once again the money thing comes in. You can build a box for around $20 and reuse sides of it and it takes about 2 hours to build so you can see how it is much to believe in your abilities and easier to find a loud combination. It also doesn't ruin a vehicle like the bigger classes and allows people to drive around with their stereo just like stereos are intended.
3. This is probably the most important thing. The move up rule does not affect anyone because of Teams and families. Right now on my Team there is another car with my same amp and subs that I just finished building which is louder than mine. The car and person has never competed in dbdrag and will be in street 1-2 next year so buy making me move out of the class all I have done is gone and built another car. Not to get around the rule but because a friend on the team asked me to. Also my girlfriend competes in USACI and would like to do dbdrag possibly next year and I already have a car which I was going to sell her to give me extra money on my upcoming move to Super Street. Others would just want their money back by selling their vehicle. So by making me and others move up it has not changed anything for street competitors next year(the same cars and better systems will be there again). I will still be building vehicles as many others did this year and still be doing relatively loud numbers in street class next year once again because my friends and family asked. I would be moving up so you have added competitors at least but others might sell the car and quit(to many names to list for last years street that did this) so the car which isn't the important thing is still their but the competitor which sould be important is now gone. How did this help the organization?
I would like to see a street(mini street) and pro street at finals, I know this would add another class but I believe this would allow the new guy a realistic shot at finals just like this years street and allow the so called pros a street where they can compete against the actual best without scaring off the first timers. Street is by far the most popular class but yet has by far the least amount of classes within the street heading? This seems strange to me when you can't even fill the extreme and some super street classes at finals? The mini street classes in Missouri shows like Bolivar and Springfield where almost always fully populated because the event promotors did their job, amps like Zapco 6.0s and Crossfire 1000ds were what the big guys had doing the occasional 149s and everyone had a great time every show(talk to dbsteve about this because obviously he knows how to through a great show). I just believe that this would be best for the organization. If a pro really wants to build a system to dominate in the mini street classes I think they would be very looked down upon seeing that their is a real street class to compete in. I'm sorry it was so long everyone and thank you for reading. Lets here what others thing.
-------------------- KCG Team Maxxsonics Posts: 1425 | From: Centralia, IL | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
Even with the level of the street class being so high, and almost requiring $1500 in equipment or more, that is a drop in the bucket compared to SS classes with quads. Here's an example, my system :
S10 pickup (I already have, daily driver) - $0 2 Kicker S12L7D4s - $500 Crossfire VR2000d - $1000 Red top battery - $100 Head Unit with changer - $400 Wire, other misc - $50 Box building materials, wood, glue, screws - $50
This install was capable of 7th place at world finals.
So if you have a vehicle you can compete with (most already do) then you have to spend about $2100, and that covers 1 box and 1 install, not trying different equipment to get louder, bare minimum here.
Let's go to the next class up, SuperStreet NoWall.
Dodge Caravan, in good running condition to drive to shows (otherwise need a tow vehicle which is more $$) - $2000 2 15 inch woofers capable of handling 3000-4000 watts - $800 8 1000 watt amps used - $1600 16 batteries (16V setup) - $800 Wire, misc, etc. - $150 Box building supplies - $200 Head Unit for poduim - $200
That's almost $6000 right there, or roughly 3 times the cost. Also that doesn't include having a place to store this vehicle, as you probably won't daily drive it with the box and amps in there. That setup, done right should do a 160-162 which would have possibly qualified for finals but not made the top 8, and been 5+ dB behind the leader in the class.
Most of the current street vehicles could not be used next year without major modifications and converting them to "comp only" vehicles, other than some of the vans in Street 3-4.
Basically why would you want to spend roughly 3 times as much money and not be as competitive as you are currently?
Let's also compare top of the line systems at current going rates (from scratch):
Street 1-2: CRX - $1000 2 L7s - $500 4KW - $2500 SVR80 - $150 Head Unit with changer - $400 Wire, misc - $50 Box supplies - $50
Total: $4650 for a world finals winning caliber equipment and vehicle.
Super Street No Wall: Caravan that can be driven to shows - $2000 2 DD9917s quads - $1200 16 bd1500.1s - $8000 32 Turbostarts - $2500 Head Unit for podium - $200 Line Driver for 16 amps - $200 Wire, misc - $300 Box supplies - $200
Total: $14,600 for a vehicle capable of winning world finals.
under $5000 vs. $15,000 and the answer is an easy one why we don't want to move up.
One last thing, why should those of us that follow the "intent" of the rules move up or be forced to stop competing where there are certain teams or individuals or families that look for the loophole and compete in street even with the move-up rule. What I think would be an exciting finals in 1-2:
Dave Lawrence, Matt Bransoy, Eric Coutler, Team Aztec, Mike Steirs, Mike Skaritka, Kevin Koller, and a couple of other big-boys in street duking it out at finals. I'd pay to see that, and work my rear off to be a part of it. Entire class being within 2 dB top to bottom at finals with most places being decided by under 0.3 dB. That would be good for dBDrag racing.
posted
The reasons i dont wanna move up is i can varely afford street right now. If i had to go to a Super Street class i would but it would take me a long time to build a system that would be competive. It probly wouldnt be any louder than a street car.
So basically everything Shedluv said i agree with that.
posted
Well to be honest, anyone who competed this year and did not make it to finals with the system that they already have would need to spend more money obviously to get louder in order to be up there among those top competitors, so why is it fair for people who got invites to finals and are in street class to not want to spend more money, but it isn't okay for people who are in street class and didn't make it to finals to have to spend more money in order to get up there with those finalists??
Also can't you have sponsorship in ss?? Can't you ahve a store behind you?? Can't you work out deals with manufacturers in ss?
You can't do any of that in street, therefore street can actually wind up costing you more money..........
By the way, I know that I have never made finals, I just want to voice my opinions as well, there are always 2 sides to the story, that is why I am trying to make my points as well.
I think that I have said too much....................I must go now................the SPL Ninja's are upon me Need more power? UP YOURS!! with Excessive Amperage! Posts: 6070 | From: Northern California | Registered: Nov 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by orphan440: This maybe long and things that you have heard before so bare with me but I think it will give you the answer(s) you are looking for from someone that the rule will actually affect next year, I'll try to keep it as short as possible.
1.I would love to move up to Super Street but it seems to me that almost everyone that is competitive in Super Street and Extreme is either sponsored and pays close to nothing (or nothing) for their equipment, or is older, has been doing this for years, or has an actual steady paying job to allow them to afford to be competitive in those classes. Lets be real here, money is a big issue and while I paid $3000 dollars for an amp in the street class this year(which cost more than my car, subs, wiring, and batteries combined), that is nothing compared to the minimum of 8 amps(full price) I would have to buy next year, not to metion another vehicle, 20+ batteries, and larger more expensive woofers. Fortunately for me I have money to afford these things if I am forced to go into debt next year to move up, but for the most part street is filled with younger college students who do not get a full athelitic scholarship like I do and have to pay for housing, school, bills, etc. So in other words if you let them compete in the street class which allows them to be involved in dbdrag and after one year tell them okay now you have to spend 5 times as much when they have already gone into debt over the street class most will say forget it and just watch next year. I and a few others would not be that way but for the most part that is how it would be.
2. Most people are afraid of failur it seems to me(even for street class) and the thought of building something that will take alot more time and effort I think scares them. A street vehicle is very easy to understand and build and seems like a much more enjoyable process for most people I know and once again the money thing comes in. You can build a box for around $20 and reuse sides of it and it takes about 2 hours to build so you can see how it is much to believe in your abilities and easier to find a loud combination. It also doesn't ruin a vehicle like the bigger classes and allows people to drive around with their stereo just like stereos are intended.
3. This is probably the most important thing. The move up rule does not affect anyone because of Teams and families. Right now on my Team there is another car with my same amp and subs that I just finished building which is louder than mine. The car and person has never competed in dbdrag and will be in street 1-2 next year so buy making me move out of the class all I have done is gone and built another car. Not to get around the rule but because a friend on the team asked me to. Also my girlfriend competes in USACI and would like to do dbdrag possibly next year and I already have a car which I was going to sell her to give me extra money on my upcoming move to Super Street. Others would just want their money back by selling their vehicle. So by making me and others move up it has not changed anything for street competitors next year(the same cars and better systems will be there again). I will still be building vehicles as many others did this year and still be doing relatively loud numbers in street class next year once again because my friends and family asked. I would be moving up so you have added competitors at least but others might sell the car and quit(to many names to list for last years street that did this) so the car which isn't the important thing is still their but the competitor which sould be important is now gone. How did this help the organization?
I would like to see a street(mini street) and pro street at finals, I know this would add another class but I believe this would allow the new guy a realistic shot at finals just like this years street and allow the so called pros a street where they can compete against the actual best without scaring off the first timers. Street is by far the most popular class but yet has by far the least amount of classes within the street heading? This seems strange to me when you can't even fill the extreme and some super street classes at finals? The mini street classes in Missouri shows like Bolivar and Springfield where almost always fully populated because the event promotors did their job, amps like Zapco 6.0s and Crossfire 1000ds were what the big guys had doing the occasional 149s and everyone had a great time every show(talk to dbsteve about this because obviously he knows how to through a great show). I just believe that this would be best for the organization. If a pro really wants to build a system to dominate in the mini street classes I think they would be very looked down upon seeing that their is a real street class to compete in. I'm sorry it was so long everyone and thank you for reading. Lets here what others thing.
Kevin, I would just like to know if you were allowed to stay in street for the 2003 system, would you still have helped your friend build the system to compete in Street? Would you still help your girlfriend in Street? If you would have still helped them, then it really isn't because you had to move out, you did it to be a good friend and a good competitor. Or if you did it to help someone get into the sport then by you moving up opened the door to a "newbie" as everyone keeps calling them, which is what I think the rule was in place to do in the first part.
posted
I would also like to say that you guys have to realize those competitors that are for leaving that rule in place are well aware that they too might have to move up after the 2003 season, and they are obviously willing to do so, and it will impact them the same way that it is impacting you for this season, yet they still want the rule to remain.
Posts: 217 | From: California | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by firefly: Kevin, I would just like to know if you were allowed to stay in street for the 2003 system, would you still have helped your friend build the system to compete in Street? Would you still help your girlfriend in Street? If you would have still helped them, then it really isn't because you had to move out, you did it to be a good friend and a good competitor. Or if you did it to help someone get into the sport then by you moving up opened the door to a "newbie" as everyone keeps calling them, which is what I think the rule was in place to do in the first part.
I built the car thinking that I am going to be allowed in street next year. I built it last week. Also, my girlfriend is going to buy a car regardless but I would see her mine if I couldn't use it. I never said anything was wrong with being sponsered or having a shop help but most can't get that done. Like I said I will pay to play regardless of anything else. Rick, that is what the mini street class will be for. What you would pay extra would be nothing compared to a street to super street jump. The only thing you need is 1 amp and a new vehicle. You should be sticking up for the mini street if you don't want to go up against me and others. Thanks again for listening.
-------------------- KCG Team Maxxsonics Posts: 1425 | From: Centralia, IL | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by idbl_Fanatic: Well to be honest, anyone who competed this year and did not make it to finals with the system that they already have would need to spend more money obviously to get louder in order to be up there among those top competitors, so why is it fair for people who got invites to finals and are in street class to not want to spend more money, but it isn't okay for people who are in street class and didn't make it to finals to have to spend more money in order to get up there with those finalists??
Also can't you have sponsorship in ss?? Can't you ahve a store behind you?? Can't you work out deals with manufacturers in ss?
You can't do any of that in street, therefore street can actually wind up costing you more money..........
By the way, I know that I have never made finals, I just want to voice my opinions as well, there are always 2 sides to the story, that is why I am trying to make my points as well.
How many stores or manufacturers will support someone in a superstreet class when they have never competed in that class before, EVER. Yes you can get backing, and my numbers above reflected a considerable price deduction, but you can't get it for free or much below cost. Basically all of us Street guys are "newbies" in Superstreet and extreme and therefore on the bottom of the proverbial ladder. The problem that I have with the move up rule is that the competitors that are "circumventing" the rule are ones who have established backgrounds and a fair amount of competition experience (with a few World Finals trophies under their belt), those are the ones that manufacturers or shops would be interested in backing, not the normal street competitors who have to move up. I will move up if the rule stays in place and find a way to be competitive in superstreet or extreme, because I want to compete, even if its not a world finals level.
Speaking directly to Rick: You know how to build a loud box in an extended cab truck (you helped with Zac's). You have 2 L7s and a 2000 watt amp (that's all I had and I got 7th). I'm sure you can find a used 82-93 S15 extended cab for under $1000. Problem solved.
quote:Originally posted by firefly: Kevin, I would just like to know if you were allowed to stay in street for the 2003 system, would you still have helped your friend build the system to compete in Street? Would you still help your girlfriend in Street? If you would have still helped them, then it really isn't because you had to move out, you did it to be a good friend and a good competitor. Or if you did it to help someone get into the sport then by you moving up opened the door to a "newbie" as everyone keeps calling them, which is what I think the rule was in place to do in the first part.
I built the car thinking that I am going to be allowed in street next year. I built it last week. Also, my girlfriend is going to buy a car regardless but I would see her mine if I couldn't use it. I never said anything was wrong with being sponsered or having a shop help but most can't get that done. Like I said I will pay to play regardless of anything else. Rick, that is what the mini street class will be for. What you would pay extra would be nothing compared to a street to super street jump. The only thing you need is 1 amp and a new vehicle. You should be sticking up for the mini street if you don't want to go up against me and others. Thanks again for listening.
If a "MINI" street was offered, you should still be allowed to goto finals. But you still have the problem, of how many people actually run one woofer?
I think that I have said too much....................I must go now................the SPL Ninja's are upon me Need more power? UP YOURS!! with Excessive Amperage! Posts: 6070 | From: Northern California | Registered: Nov 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Its not Why Wayne, its Cant!!! I do not have the money, I love the sport, but the small amount of equipment the class requires and not having to tow, allows me to compete, if I have to tow and purchase a ton of equipment to compete then I will have to move to another organization that has a place for me.
Also what if this is the most interesting class to that person, what if this is what interest them???
Bottom line you need 2 classes
1. A street class that goes to Finals with no move-up rule. and 2. A class that doesnt go to Finals with a move-up rule.
You do not need Finals in a class that boots the best out, the best should go to Finals every year just like any other class, shouldnt be punished for not having the money of others. Like it is now, Street and Mini Street, but no move up rule in Street, and no Finals in mini, it is really that simple.
Eric
P.S. What if you loose the Next Michael Hughes, Alma Gates, or Steve Cook to another organization because you werent willing to allow a place for them to play and develope until sponsership was offered, or until it became financial possible for them??????? Wouldnt that hurt this organization, isnt that against the motion of this organization?????? Just something to think about.
-------------------- Team SPT (Co-Founder)
Former Super Street Deathmatch World Champions Former Super Street 3-4 World Record Holders Former Super Street 3-4 2nd Place World Champions Former Super Street 5+ 2nd Place World Champions 3 Time DBDrag Street World Record Holder 3x MECA World Champion and Record Holder And Helped a Few Break some Records along the way! And Got some help.
posted
Well since i'm just starting out, here is my newbie opinion.....
I kinda jumped past the street class, and landed in the ss1-2nw class. And from the #'s i've see there is no way i'll ever be able to really compete well in that class. It's too open. I think there should be a street nw class as well as the ss nw class. In that way ppl with smalles system (less $$) can still be competitive. There needs to be somthing like a newbi, adv, and pro class for ea. class.. someway to further seperate "some" of the catagories...Street seams pretty good as it is, but maybe the amp ratings for classes should be looked at.. More about what the amps are doing at 2ohm rather than 4, since most amps are at 1 or 2 anyways... the fact is most ppl starting out in this only go to a few events a year, and what will keep them comming back and getting more into it??? Winning..I'm not saying divide it up so everyone wins, but the field needs to be leveled out a bit more. Cause how many ppl would keep going to local events just to pay $25 (which is too high) just to get beat out by the local pro's or shop cars, cause there out matched in there class....
