quote:Originally posted by QuadCam: Why does everyone think that it is so expensive to compete in Street?
I believe Chris Bortz (All4SPL) porved that one can compete and qualify for finals on a strict budget. If I remember correctly, Chris bought 2 pf the cheap RE subs (can't remember the model) and a used shredder for well under $1000, probably only about $750.
I think he had a high certified score of 153.2 dB; he won almost every local show and also a few double and triple point events!
He may not have won World Finals, but it is one hell of an accomplishment just to qualify and attend Finals!!!
Congrats to you Chris Bortz for accomplishing what all these naysayers say can't be done!
Thanks Andrew. I'm not sure Chris saw this yet, but I'll make sure he does.
D2 was bought used for under $400 from Kara Lucious, the REs were under $300 for the pair. For the past two and a half years he's worked his ass off building box after box, design after design, and yes, ultimately switched cars to one he's wanted and been looking for since before he and I got together five years ago ... So if you count the $2500 on the car, he's still got less in the entire competition system than others in street 1-2 have in their amp alone. And he was knocking on 152 in the Prelude before making the switch.
-------------------- When you find yourself standing in a hole and holding a shovel, stop digging.
Certified IASCA/idbl Judge ** 2002 IASCA SQ Points Champ ** IASCA Pro Street 601+ * USACi Pro 601+ * SLAP Pro Street 601+ ** Team Gates ** dBs Posts: 5428 | From: Orlando, Florida | Registered: May 2000
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quote:Originally posted by firefly: There is a lot of talk about the move up rule being policed and making sure that everyone follows it....wouldn't it just be like every other rule that is in place, the competitors are expected to be honest about it, and if they chose to lie or be dishonest about it, there will almost always be another competitor there to bring it to the judges attention. After all I think it was dBSteve who said they can't check everything all the time and they rely on other competitors to bring things to their attention...so if in fact the rule stayed in place I would expect the competitors to be honest.
And if it's in a gray area there's nothing a judge can do about it on the spot. I've been at shows where this has happened - heck, even at World Finals. Back in about April or May, Wayne made the comment that if 50% or more of a team had been to finals before, they were ineligble for street. And there were a few at finals that were blatant about "well this is my third finals" and were competing in street.
Like Wayne said - he can't dictate what people do with their personally owned vehicles outside of class them in his competition body. He can't keep competitor A from selling it to Competitor B, or competitor C from letting his brother/sister/wife/kid run it in the following year. Yes, the competitors should be honest about it, but when you think about it - so should manufacturers about rated equipment... For some it's about winning, others it's about a good time. Others still about doing well honestly.
But in the grand scheme of things - if you have to buy it or play gray to win - do you really win? If you don't beat the best car out there - regardless of whether they've won before or not, do you really win?
It's not as if things like this are huge state secrets - everyone knows its going on and it is quite impossible to do anything about it without turning all of competition - not just dbDrag, but the entire industry on its ear.
Make the rules so they are enforceable, and retain who you have, while you grow the new blood.
-------------------- When you find yourself standing in a hole and holding a shovel, stop digging.
Certified IASCA/idbl Judge ** 2002 IASCA SQ Points Champ ** IASCA Pro Street 601+ * USACi Pro 601+ * SLAP Pro Street 601+ ** Team Gates ** dBs Posts: 5428 | From: Orlando, Florida | Registered: May 2000
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posted
OK..heres a brain storm...since a few people want a SS 3-4 NW and the numbers in 1-2 nw & 1-2 are identical....how boult a comprimixe.....eliminate NW along with combinding EX 9-12 & 13+......then make two intermeadiate classes...Pro Street 1-2 & 3-4....same rules as street class with these ecceptions....
You can have one amp per woffer 2 amps in 1-2 or 4 amps in 3-4
You can use up to 2 batts in 1-2 and 4 batts in 3-4
you can use 15s
This would be a less expencive place to move up to for those who went to finals....it would in essence be a pair of limmited NW classes....and in doing this we could just leave the rules for the current street classes as they are including the move up rule...
-------------------- Team TAZM Team Gates Exotic Dreamz Car Club Team Cartunes
quote:Originally posted by Ghost man: OK..heres a brain storm...since a few people want a SS 3-4 NW and the numbers in 1-2 nw & 1-2 are identical....how boult a comprimixe.....eliminate NW along with combinding EX 9-12 & 13+......then make two intermeadiate classes...Pro Street 1-2 & 3-4....same rules as street class with these ecceptions....
You can have one amp per woffer 2 amps in 1-2 or 4 amps in 3-4
You can use up to 2 batts in 1-2 and 4 batts in 3-4
you can use 15s
This would be a less expencive place to move up to for those who went to finals....it would in essence be a pair of limmited NW classes....and in doing this we could just leave the rules for the current street classes as they are including the move up rule...
Great idea.. the best I've heard so far..
-------------------- Shattered and Broken. Now Recovering. Posts: 1226 | From: Mississauga, ON, Canada | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Ghost man: OK..heres a brain storm...since a few people want a SS 3-4 NW and the numbers in 1-2 nw & 1-2 are identical....how boult a comprimixe.....eliminate NW along with combinding EX 9-12 & 13+......then make two intermeadiate classes...Pro Street 1-2 & 3-4....same rules as street class with these ecceptions....
You can have one amp per woffer 2 amps in 1-2 or 4 amps in 3-4
You can use up to 2 batts in 1-2 and 4 batts in 3-4
you can use 15s
This would be a less expencive place to move up to for those who went to finals....it would in essence be a pair of limmited NW classes....and in doing this we could just leave the rules for the current street classes as they are including the move up rule...
Great idea.. the best I've heard so far..
you would not spend any more for the move up than you had to spend to make finals in the first place....and if you ran shocker 3s...all you'd have to do is get a recone....
-------------------- Team TAZM Team Gates Exotic Dreamz Car Club Team Cartunes
posted
" Boo-Hoo...Ineedthe move-up rule...without it I willlose! " That is what I keep hearing from a people, who who do not want to have competition. I for one love the competition. As for BUDGET , I used the same box all season, I used a used $300 amp, and I used a pair of 12"s too. That is what I could afford. I did do well, as Rick mentioned...but due to Budget could not afford to make it to the finals. I would like to try again, and maybe save enough to go this year...between buying a new house, a new car and having 2 kids. dB Drag gets expensive, I went to enough shows to accumalate 552 points and that was A LOT of $$$. What I want to say is,"would you like some cheese w/ that whine?,or whino's should stay in USAC......hint-hint..
quote:Originally posted by two12snmycivic: " Boo-Hoo...Ineedthe move-up rule...without it I willlose! " That is what I keep hearing from a people, who who do not want to have competition. I for one love the competition. As for BUDGET , I used the same box all season, I used a used $300 amp, and I used a pair of 12"s too. That is what I could afford. I did do well, as Rick mentioned...but due to Budget could not afford to make it to the finals. I would like to try again, and maybe save enough to go this year...between buying a new house, a new car and having 2 kids. dB Drag gets expensive, I went to enough shows to accumalate 552 points and that was A LOT of $$$. What I want to say is,"would you like some cheese w/ that whine?,or whino's should stay in USAC......hint-hint..
Maybe you should think before hitting the Reply button. Does that mean that are you whining that you have to move up?.. Are you scared of loosing in a bigger class or something?
-------------------- Shattered and Broken. Now Recovering. Posts: 1226 | From: Mississauga, ON, Canada | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
OK....how bout a combination of burping and an average score.......like change street class to 15 seconds....then make it average score for the full 15 seconds...that would take away the advantage of the giant amps like the 4kwt.....since the stock electrical system can only store enough power to feed those big amps for one or two 3s burps they would drain the batts too much and efffectivly make it even between 2kwt and 4kwt amps.....heck might even be able to keep up with a slightly smaller amp
-------------------- Team TAZM Team Gates Exotic Dreamz Car Club Team Cartunes
posted
[/qb][/QUOTE]Maybe you should think before hitting the Reply button. Does that mean that are you whining that you have to move up?.. Are you scared of loosing in a bigger class or something? [/QB][/QUOTE]
I am not whining about me, I did try SS1-2(2000) and SS1-2NW(2001) before letting go and trying (2002)S1-2. I know I can do OK in either classes...just never in Extreme(2005), unless a yellow Blazer fell into my lap...lol... I am just saying, anyone should be allowed to be where they feel comfortable w/out others telling them there place...bias or not...
posted
A 15 inch woofer in S 1-2 sounds good.,but., Why does my two cubic foot box with ten inch pyramid woofers placed on the rear seat send me to Super Street.,when the same set up in IDBL is just stock? (1999 chevy cavalier.,two door sedan.,trunk unavailable due to being full of moms stuff)? No extra battery.,no alternator upgrades.,no batt caps.,allowed. Ban the Known big amps.,4kw Zapco.,the Drag Queen.,the 6k JBL.,. Moving up rule not workable? Hmmm.,there is an alternative.,your drivers license.,please.,all street finalists pictures and data added to dbdrag website.,viewable by judges.,only. At registration time.,ask.,your drivers liscence.,please.,check the DB Drag site.,if competitor is in violation.,simple.,impound the vehicle and add a nice fine.,say one thousand dollars.,first time.,three thousand dollars second time.,ten thousand dollars third time. And not only is the drivers liscence the only data point.,we also have the vehicle insurance forms.,etc. Not to mention the simple expediency of finger prints and the good reliable fax machine. And another data point is a us passport and credit cards. And how many finalists are there in street division at world finals.,a few hundred.,at most? Just an idea.,it works to track millons of individuals.,it sure will work for a few hundred. Thank you.
-------------------- You are what you read. Un happy with your life? Change what you read. Change what you are. Posts: 206 | From: Nobodys damn business but mine | Registered: Jun 2002
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I feel removing the move up rule is better, if anything , for those who cant afford 4kw's and the sort. Removal of the rule means you dont have to worry about qualifying for finals, getting steamrolled, and not being able to return next year...you've got time to pool your resources and catch up with the pack...there's only so far you can go $ wise with a single amp and a pair of drivers.
posted
The move up rule is a Major change.. but it's going to be gone anyways.. I dont know about everyone else.. but I'd just like to see the rules made up so we can start to compete..
-------------------- Shattered and Broken. Now Recovering. Posts: 1226 | From: Mississauga, ON, Canada | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
When will the new rules be done. I can't Start building my new design untill the classes are decided on. I might run 3 10", 1-2 12" or 1 -15" with 1000 watts but untill the new rules are decided on I can't do anything.
-------------------- atomic apoc 15 with spl mod and a atomic 1500.1 at .5 ohm
quote:Originally posted by dkmst23: When will the new rules be done. I can't Start building my new design untill the classes are decided on. I might run 3 10", 1-2 12" or 1 -15" with 1000 watts but untill the new rules are decided on I can't do anything.
I'm pretty sure that there are a lot of us waiting on these last minute changes to come through. I believe that I've found middle ground though, so I'm getting started and will modify if need be.
-------------------- Chris Dilbeck Jack of all trades, master of none. Posts: 95 | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Wayne how about we police the no sponsorship in street rule alittle better. Make these people running these $4-5000 amps show receits for them from a dealer. And if it is found that the amps were given to them, not only penalize the competitor but the manufacture. maybe ban the manufacture from street, ie noone can use their product in street, but let them still be allowed in the ss and extreme classes where this is not a problem.
Also on the allowing of 15s in street, I say this is ok, but we are going to have to change the name of the classes as street 3-4 with 2 15s isnt 3-4, ie maybe call it street 1 amp street 2 amps, or something like that.
-------------------- ---JASON SMITH--- Man its been a long time Posts: 906 | From: Taylor, AL | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Smitty: Wayne how about we police the no sponsorship in street rule alittle better. Make these people running these $4-5000 amps show receits for them from a dealer. And if it is found that the amps were given to them, not only penalize the competitor but the manufacture. maybe ban the manufacture from street, ie noone can use their product in street, but let them still be allowed in the ss and extreme classes where this is not a problem.
Also on the allowing of 15s in street, I say this is ok, but we are going to have to change the name of the classes as street 3-4 with 2 15s isnt 3-4, ie maybe call it street 1 amp street 2 amps, or something like that.
here's the problem ... those $4-5,000 amps can be found used for $1500 alot more often than you would think.
A 4kw was sold the other day in springfield for that amount. There were also some sold for $2000 also.
I personally own $3000 worth of gear and only have $600 invested. Good deals are around.
Keeping sponsored people out is easier than keeping those out that have purchased used equipment. Kinda hard to document purchasing used equipment. As far as reciepts go, its too easy to make a fake reciept.
Kinda the honor system.
-------------------- See you in the lanes,
dBSteve Get Loud Productions LLC Posts: 8599 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Smitty: Wayne how about we police the no sponsorship in street rule alittle better. Make these people running these $4-5000 amps show receits for them from a dealer. And if it is found that the amps were given to them, not only penalize the competitor but the manufacture. maybe ban the manufacture from street, ie noone can use their product in street, but let them still be allowed in the ss and extreme classes where this is not a problem.
Also on the allowing of 15s in street, I say this is ok, but we are going to have to change the name of the classes as street 3-4 with 2 15s isnt 3-4, ie maybe call it street 1 amp street 2 amps, or something like that.
here's the problem ... those $4-5,000 amps can be found used for $1500 alot more often than you would think.
A 4kw was sold the other day in springfield for that amount. There were also some sold for $2000 also.
I personally own $3000 worth of gear and only have $600 invested. Good deals are around.
Keeping sponsored people out is easier than keeping those out that have purchased used equipment. Kinda hard to document purchasing used equipment. As far as reciepts go, its too easy to make a fake reciept.
Kinda the honor system.
I totally agree with dbsteve.. it's just sad that so many people abuse the honor system..
-------------------- Shattered and Broken. Now Recovering. Posts: 1226 | From: Mississauga, ON, Canada | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Its a problem to police useing value - we in South Africa get equipment from all over and the prices vary so much for a example an amp of 2kw can cost R3000.00 to R18000.00 how do police that. Then you have the cast where the guys but it second hand overseas and bring it back here???
it wont work.....sorry.
-------------------- dB Drags South Africa. Posts: 152 | From: Johannesburg - South Africa | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Wayne Harris: First, let me thank everyone for all of the feedback that has been posted in this forum. I am very pleased that everyone has such strong feelings regarding the issues at hand.
With that being said, let me re-emphasize that we do not want to see any major changes to the sport. (I have recently read several posts from competitors who are concerned that there may be major changes.) I believe that stability is a key factor in improving the officiating, participation, and growth of dB Drag Racing. We had a great season in 2002 and I feel that stability was one of the key reasons for that. I don't forsee any major changes for the 2003 season.
The purpose of this post is to reassure competitors that sport of dB Drag Racing is not going to change.
IMO: Number of amps in S class is MAJOR change!
Please reconsider that change in the name of average competitor in S class.
That change might save some money for top 20 competitors, but it will make it more expensive for thousand others that are local competitors and are core of this sport.
I also think that sponsors don't want to see only few top cars at competitions, but a lot of people that are involved in this sport with everyday cars.
If this rule is really so necessary, can you make it at least for next season 2004? So this way people will have more time for changes! Many organizations plan changes for future, not for runing season.
Peter Pejovic / Slovenia
Posts: 1820 | From: Ljubljana, Slovenia | Registered: Jan 2000
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now you are portecting few poeple that have 4kW's an punishing all others.
i belive that will damage street class.
-------------------- Šempeter, 22.02.2003, 150,1 dB SA 1.place Gameljne, 05.04.2003, 152,4 dB SA 1.place Sinsheim, 12-13.04.2003, European Spring Break 3X, 148,3dB SA 3.place Koper, 03.05.2003, 153,4 dB SA 1.place Velden (A), 31.05.2003, 147,9 dB SA 1.place Naklo, 22.06.2003, 155,4 dB SA 1.place Koper, 31.08.2003, 153,0 dB SA 1.place Goričan, 20.9.2003, 3x, 148,4 dB SA 1. place SA Gameljne, 11.10.2003, 154,0 dB SA 1.place Državni Prvak Slovenije dB-Drag Street A Državni Prvak Hrvaške dB-Drag Street A Balkan's LouDDest DDaily DDriven Vehicle Padova - Italy, 02.11.2003, 148,9dB Street A Posts: 86 | From: Slovenia | Registered: Dec 2001
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