quote:Originally posted by idbl_Fanatic: Ok, what about this rule:
1-1 The program media may be from a commercial source (such as a CD you purchase) or a custom, homemade recording.
I can record a CD and amplify the bass tones (A lot) on it with my PC
................................... Also,
Crushing in the roof or the doors of the vehicle in such a manner as to alter the vehicle’s interior volume is prohibited.
Did someone actually attempt to do this?? LMAO
rick,
at a 1X event, you can use any program material. at multipoint events, you have to use the current db drag DB JAMS CD!
Yeah I knew that, I was just stating another loophole for 1x events
if you have a song thats recored at 0 dB and one that is recored at +10 dB, the +10 dB will distort faster so the scores will be the same either way.
Posts: 988 | From: FLA | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:. to all the european guys, we may get stuff cheaper over here but you guys get skylines and evo 7's so it evens out .[/QB]
Still can't afford them though... I have a customer with an Evo 6 "Tommi Makkinen" Edition...£32,000 $52,750... Quick car though...
-------------------- ----------------------------------- Team Troublestarter (Tea~boy, One lump or two?) Posts: 171 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2000
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posted
Ok, so the vehicles cannot be running while in the lanes competing, what IF the vehicle can't start after it's round? DOES that person get DQ'ed? I think that needs to be in the rules, since the rules state tht the vehichle must enter and exit the lane under it's own power
I think that I have said too much....................I must go now................the SPL Ninja's are upon me Need more power? UP YOURS!! with Excessive Amperage! Posts: 6116 | From: Northern California | Registered: Nov 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Sid Grice: If the rules are amended, so that street vehicles are not allowed to be runing during the metering process, then the following rule would also need to be amended.
4-1 The vehicle must be driven into and out of the judging lanes.
It might slow down the competition too much, if many of the street competitor had to jump start the vehicles in order to drive it out of the lanes.
Well if they are running a true street amp that is not going to be a problem then is it
The battery could be on it's last leg and the competitor not realize it. One good burp could push it over the edge.
-------------------- Chris Dilbeck Jack of all trades, master of none. Posts: 95 | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
The car off in the judging lane does not even the playing field. It gives the advantage to small cars like the CRX for instance that don't have as much interior volume to compress. A full size extended cab truck has signifficanly more cubic feet of air space to compress. While larger vehicles may have an advantage in some cases they are certainly at a disadvantage in others.
-------------------- Chris Dilbeck Jack of all trades, master of none. Posts: 95 | Registered: Jan 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Wayne Harris: The limits that are imposed on the electrical systems in the Street Division are an important part of the equation for limiting amplifier power in this division.
The rules have never allowed upgraded or aftermarket alternators to be used in this division, regardless of whether the vehicle came with the upgrade or whether the alternator was replaced at the dealer or by the competitor.
How would you suggest that we word this rule? The goal is to prevent competitors from circumventing the electrical system limitations that are imposed on the Street Division.
Wayne, I don't recall any one bringing up a problem with the old rule, only the potential for a problem and the next thing that you know we are off on a tangent. We should leave the rule as it was or state that "only options packages available through a local retail auto sales center are allowable"
In that definition no one is changing the alternator. They are only being allowed to use an alternator available from the factory as part of a retail options package that is available to the general public. That is not biased for or against anyone.
The idea of engine off testing I considered but this will effect different vehicles very differently. You will create an advantage for vehicles with small interiors because they have to displace less air to achieve the same SPL. All your truck bodied vehicles and larger will be at an instant disadvantage. People will be furious when the realize the long term effects of these rules changes.
My request is to leave them alone, or modify them to remove such controversy. How often have people been caught breaking the existing alternator rules at multi point events or finals? I know that there is no way in hell I would roll in to finals knowing that my system wouldn't pass the test if I were contested. Then I would be DQ'd. I think that people generally have more sense then that.
-------------------- Chris Dilbeck Jack of all trades, master of none. Posts: 95 | Registered: Jan 2001
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quote:Originally posted by orphan440: Maybe I'm wrong but wouldn't cars being off help smaller cars with small alternators catch ones with big alternators or is this such a problem because now you guys can't beef up the electrical systems and run your voltage at close to 18 volts alts are never checked, I believe people cheat, this is the best way to make sure with the lowest amount of trouble. It will also level power levels amps can produce. No caps no extra batteries, Wayne comes up with the good ideas and there are only about 5 people that complain about them because they got their loop hole shut.
Nope, this is not the case at all. This is quite simple. I have 3 different truck body vehicles. (one is an old beater that I can't use) OF the other two both are 4 wheel drive and have alternators which are part of standard options packages FROM THE FACTORY. I haven't been competing in DBdrag for a few years. I am trying to get a vehicle ready for myself, and a few other people that I know. Now I can't compete without buying a new CAR. So all of you need to stop whining about the cost of an amp. Wayne just eliminated me from being able to compete and be ethical about it by changing the rules. Here is the funny part. In my case the V8 4 wheel drive version came with a 120 alternator instead of a 90 amp that comes on the V6 version. I added the towing package and it bumped up to 135 amps. It's still from the factory, but by certain definintions that is a commercial package.
In other words this rule Disqualifies me for having a Towing package, because that is considered to be a commercial option by at least one manufacturer, and in certain states.
-------------------- Chris Dilbeck Jack of all trades, master of none. Posts: 95 | Registered: Jan 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Shedluv: Just checked the "final" draft. No alternator restrictions in street? Where can I find a 240 amp Ohio Generator for a CRX?
That is because the rule was changed so that the car can not be running. This is a bad idea in my opinion. But if it is what you want then that is fine. Many truck body vehicles can fit some HUGE 12 volt batteries in the factory location. Running a pair in Street B should provide plenty of oomph for each burp.
quote: The contestant is competing in the Super Street or Extreme Divisions of competition. Contestants competing in the Street Division are prohibited from running their vehicles while in the judging lanes. (Please see Section 2 for a complete description of the Competitor Classification System.)
-------------------- Chris Dilbeck Jack of all trades, master of none. Posts: 95 | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
well, I was going to start competing this year, would be my first year doing so. After reading everything here, and reading the some of the rules, I think I'll pass on ever trying to compete.
posted
CRX (or similar vehicle)... 1 or 2 - 15" woofers... multiple amplifiers... Upgraded alternator... No modifications to the interior...
Street 1-2...engine NOT running Street 3-4...engine NOT running
Superstreet 1-2... engine IS running
As the way the proposed classes are structured, a competitor could easily jump between street and superstreet, depending on whether he/she wishes to have the engine running during competition or leving the engine turned off. Of course, it may be understandable that the other Superstreet competitors may have more amplifiers than the competitor who is changing from S to SS, but the fact still remains that it would be easy to switch class at any time (with no changes being made to the vehicle, once the competitor arrives at the event).
This has no bearing on anything, but I thought it was interesting and wanted to share.
posted
Wouldn't competing without running the car be harder on batteries though? I mean rapid discharging most batteries like that probably isn't the best idea.
I don't know how this actually works, but without the alternator taking some of the load, I would think that this would decrease battery life, and if so, that kinda sucks for us joe average street competitors
Posts: 577 | From: wienerpeg canada | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
ther is gonna be alot of blown amps in street this year!!! car no run -> voltage drop - > amp goes BAAAM!!
--------------------
2006 Street A - 152.7 Certified 2007 Street C - 154.8 Certified 2007 Street A - 154.4 Certified 2008 Street C - 156.3 Certified 2008 Street B - 156.6 Certified
TEAM FEAR OF BASS Posts: 3611 | From: Toronto, On, Canada | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Every year I try not to get involved in the street class discussion, because it always seems to end up with everyone wanting the rules to fit their car or setup perfectly.
I would like for anyone to tell me how the car NOT running makes db drag unfair? To me its cut and dry, alts have been the BIGGEST bitch in street since street was created. Just do away with the problem.
It is also funny hearing the same people say that its not right to be able to run 4 mono amps in street class, and in the same sentence say that they wont be able to get full power without an alt. Dont you see the odd part about this? The battery IS the limiting factor my friends, if your battery cant run the load, then you CANT run 10000 watts. You arent forced to buy more amps if the battery regulations wont run them.
posted
no no no no no.the rules were just fine the other day when i was in here,now i get in here and i think people are talking about street class not allowed to have the vehicle running,what kind of crap is this,doesnt make any sense whatsoever,we are finally allowed to run two amps in 1-2 street where we will need more power and we are not allowed to have the vehicle not running,i think we are going to go back to the whitlee and usaac shows,where we used to have some fun,where will it all end,leave the rules alone the way they were the other day,i vote for letting the vehicle run if you want it to,maybe make a class of not running vehicles,for the people who want that sort of thing,
-------------------- RODNEY BUSCH,TEAM SHOCKER AUDIO USA TEAM GATES 98 99 ran whitlee two dudes comps,usac 01 RAN STREET 1-2 WHEN IT HAD A 600WATT LIMIT 4 dr trunk car, 01 DIDNT WANT TO GO, TO MANY VANS WITH AMPS UNDER THE HOOD.4dr trunk car 02 WORLD FINALIST STREET 1-2 CERT 148.3 1 AMP 4DR TRUNK CAR. 03 WORLD FINALIST STREET A, TEAM MEMPHIS FORCE, 04 DIDNT MAKE FINALS BY 2 POINTS 04 MECA WORLD FINALIST, 5TH S2,MEMPHIS FORCE, 151.9, 2ND RSPL 05 WORLD FINALS 7TH PLACE STREET B 152.1 (WE WON THE 3 WAY TIE, DID A 152.5) 06 world finalist, bad head unit, Posts: 1728 | From: OHIO AT 1 TIME THE LOUDEST STATE | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
This is really getting out of hand. May be I should go to usac and whitlee as well or even meca lol. come on no car running? leave the rules the way they were stop destroying them.
quote:Originally posted by TechSys: well, I was going to start competing this year, would be my first year doing so. After reading everything here, and reading the some of the rules, I think I'll pass on ever trying to compete.
Lost another new person...sorry
^^^ SEE???
quote:Originally posted by Tinted: ther is gonna be alot of blown amps in street this year!!! car no run -> voltage drop - > amp goes BAAAM!!
YUP!! That is what I am afraid of as well.
quote:Originally posted by Bass Hertz2X: This is really getting out of hand. May be I should go to usac and whitlee as well or even meca lol. come on no car running? leave the rules the way they were stop destroying them.
Are you getting this point yet wayne?? Seriously you should have left all of the Street rules alone except for the move up rule.
I think that I have said too much....................I must go now................the SPL Ninja's are upon me Need more power? UP YOURS!! with Excessive Amperage! Posts: 6116 | From: Northern California | Registered: Nov 1999
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posted
the way that i see this whole street situation, is that it is pretty sad. it is just a huge load of crap that we have to make up all these stupid rules, just because a handfull of people will do whatever they can to win. to me this says, i can not design a winning system, so i will do whatever i have to, including cheating, to win. i just started competing this past year, and was looking forward to this year. i am an "average joe" type guy. i dont have a 4kw (actually, i have less money than that wrapped up in ALL my equipment). i dont have a crx. i have an s-10. but the way things seem to be going, i guess a guy like myself cant make it to finals. my thoughts are dont make so many changes. put the number of amps back to the way it was, but include the channel limits. get rid of that shut the car off stuff. i dont care about the 15's in street, but 18's. i am from ohio, but i havent seen very many people that even own 18's, let alone in a street car. and make some sort of ruling that if you are caught cheating OR bending the rules, you get booted from not just the event, but the organization. period. banned for the rest or the season, or whatever. just some of my random thoughts in this area.
posted
Can somebody PLEASE explain what the problem is with not running the car? A legitimate arguement please.
I would venture to guess that the smallest OEM alt installed in a finals street vehicle was 65 amps or larger, I would also venture to guess that 90+% of the others OEM alternators were around, if not below, 100 amps.
Also, alts do not put out full power at 2k rpm on alot of cars, so dont even think you are getting that much.
So, the Difference between factory alts is approx 40 amps in most situations. If you are running 500 amps of draw through your system, do you really think that extra 40 amps is making a ton of difference???
The only REAL people this rule could hurt are the ones why SAY they have factory alts, but are running MUCH more amperage. If any of you fall in this catagory, then take your happy ass to another organization, because if there is one thing the DBDRA DOESN'T NEED, it is worthless cheaters.
Back to the other point though, do you REALLY think voltages will be THAT much different taking away a 65 amp alternator, if your drawing 400 or 500 amps?
Some people need to realize that if YOU cant run a 4kw off of 1 standard car battery, then NEITHER CAN ANYONE ELSE. Sounds fair to me.
The the battery as the TRUE limiting factor in a system, the power situation will be leveled. 500 amps current draw will only do so much, no matter the brand of amp.
quote:Originally posted by ea1: I would like for anyone to tell me how the car NOT running makes db drag unfair?
The person who plays by the rules, does not attempt to circumvent the rules, does not try to find loopholes in the rules, and follows the guidelines set forth in the rule book, is penalized because some other person(s) bad sportsmanship? That is unfair.
Allowing the competitor to choose to compete with the engine running or not, or setting a limit in which the engine may or may not be able to be running, seems more of a fair situation.
Do you all want the power limited or not???
I do believe that there should be some sort of limitation placed on the amout of output allowed from an alternator, but to make it maditory for all competitors is not the solution. I have stated this in my previous posts. It seems useless to keep repeating my thoughts, so I will no longer debate this subject. This is Wayne's toy, and he is the one whose head is on the chopping block. If he see fit to impliment the "no run" statement into the final edition of the rules, then so be it. I do, however, believe that Wayne will do what he considers to be in the best interest of dB Drags. Whether others agree with his final rulings, still remains to be seen.
quote:Originally posted by ea1: Can somebody PLEASE explain what the problem is with not running the car? A legitimate arguement please.
I would venture to guess that the smallest OEM alt installed in a finals street vehicle was 65 amps or larger, I would also venture to guess that 90+% of the others OEM alternators were around, if not below, 100 amps.
Also, alts do not put out full power at 2k rpm on alot of cars, so dont even think you are getting that much.
So, the Difference between factory alts is approx 40 amps in most situations. If you are running 500 amps of draw through your system, do you really think that extra 40 amps is making a ton of difference???
The only REAL people this rule could hurt are the ones why SAY they have factory alts, but are running MUCH more amperage. If any of you fall in this catagory, then take your happy ass to another organization, because if there is one thing the DBDRA DOESN'T NEED, it is worthless cheaters.
Back to the other point though, do you REALLY think voltages will be THAT much different taking away a 65 amp alternator, if your drawing 400 or 500 amps?
Some people need to realize that if YOU cant run a 4kw off of 1 standard car battery, then NEITHER CAN ANYONE ELSE. Sounds fair to me.
The the battery as the TRUE limiting factor in a system, the power situation will be leveled. 500 amps current draw will only do so much, no matter the brand of amp.
If what you say is true, and the difference between the two factory alternators are minimum, then there should be no reason to mandate competitor to not be able to run the engines during the metering process. Afterall, the difference is so small, as you suggest, that one alternator will not have an advantage over another alternator.
posted
Sid, the only way no alts could be considered a penalty (disadvantage or loss due to an action according to webster) would be if only that person couldn't use the alt.
If everyone played by the same rules and didn't run their vehicles during metering, then its just a limitation, not a penalty.
Usually I am not up on limitations being placed on our hobby, as freedom of design, etc. is an important part.
BUT the reality is that the alt rule has NEVER been enforcable. Discussions of this nature take the boards over every time rules are discussed. Its NOT issue of if we should do this, to me its an issue of there being no other way to police it. Plain and simple.
I dont care for certain regulations either, like the 18v one but you know what, I play by them, or get DQed
quote:Originally posted by Sid Grice: If what you say is true, and the difference between the two factory alternators are minimum, then there should be no reason to mandate competitor to not be able to run the engines during the metering process. Afterall, the difference is so small, as you suggest, that one alternator will not have an advantage over another alternator.[/QB]
Thats the point exactly Sid, sorry for not making myself more clear.
It WONT effect any honest competitor more than another, but it SURE puts it to the ones running aftermarket or upgraded alts ILLEGALLY. And trust me, they are out there doing it. I have personally heard some brag in private, but Im not one to rat.
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