quote:Commercial “options packages” such as high-output alternators are also prohibited.
The Z71 from Chevrolet has a higher output alternator due to being 4 wheel drive, not because of being a commercial package. 4 wheel drive vehicles commonly have larger alternators and batteries because they are often used in more difficult locations such as in off road applications. A diesel motor will often have a higher output alternator and dual batteries because the operating parameters are different then that of a base model vehicle. These are not commercial packages. I can see people being disqualified for them though based on a persons interpretation of the rules. Every time that something is added or changed it creates additional issues. In my opinion this is a very bad one. Please reconsider.
-------------------- Chris Dilbeck Jack of all trades, master of none. Posts: 95 | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
The limits that are imposed on the electrical systems in the Street Division are an important part of the equation for limiting amplifier power in this division.
The rules have never allowed upgraded or aftermarket alternators to be used in this division, regardless of whether the vehicle came with the upgrade or whether the alternator was replaced at the dealer or by the competitor.
How would you suggest that we word this rule? The goal is to prevent competitors from circumventing the electrical system limitations that are imposed on the Street Division.
-------------------- "Keep it Loud and Make me Proud!"
quote:Originally posted by Wayne Harris: The limits that are imposed on the electrical systems in the Street Division are an important part of the equation for limiting amplifier power in this division.
The rules have never allowed upgraded or aftermarket alternators to be used in this division, regardless of whether the vehicle came with the upgrade or whether the alternator was replaced at the dealer or by the competitor.
How would you suggest that we word this rule? The goal is to prevent competitors from circumventing the electrical system limitations that are imposed on the Street Division.
IMO whatever it counts for this is the best as stated previously
quote:Originally posted by Who'sYourDaddy: The guideline shoud state OEM offerings only. No upgraded or altered alternators or regulators.
quote:Originally posted by navidriver: OEM offerings only.
This is the key thing here, and also note that the way I think you (Wayne) are taking it, is that the police package is an after market thing, it isn't it come from the factory that way.
But it SHOULD be worded "OEM offerings only." That is the main thing here
I think that I have said too much....................I must go now................the SPL Ninja's are upon me Need more power? UP YOURS!! with Excessive Amperage! Posts: 6070 | From: Northern California | Registered: Nov 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Wayne Harris: How would you suggest that we word this rule?
Commercial “options packages” such as high-output alternators are also prohibited.
Completely omit this statement, as it is too vague.
Instead, change it to
The maximum rating of the OEM alternator shall not exceed XXX amps.
Note 1: With the increase of vehicles being equipped with demanding computer systems, the output of the alternators (to supply power to those computers) will also increase. It is my thought, that by placing an exact limit on the output of the alternator, and by using the OEM statement, both areas of concern are covered.
Note 2: Would it be feasible to contact the major automotive manufacturers, or dealers, and obtain a list of available alternator “upgrades” possible with the purchase of any vehicle (new or old)? This information could prove valuable, if the exact limit was to be stated in the rule book.
Note 3: Just food for thought, but would it be an option to classify the different types of vehicles, with appropriate alternator allowances. Many economy passenger vehicles are equipped with smaller alternators than those in full size trucks and SUV’s.
posted
Note 4: It is unclear if dBDRA is concerned with the Cold versus Hot ratings of the alternators, so that may or may not need to be stated in adjacent to the rule.
posted
Note 2a: With Ohio Generators being a supporter of dBDRA, it may be possible that they could provide the maximum allowed "upgrade" information. If not OG, then maybe Turbostart batteries could provide this information.
posted
Well, I read up to the part where it started talkig about duallys and all. Since I own a dually I thought I would post something.
When I first bought my dually and had to get the insurance I found that 3 insurance companies would require it to be under a commercial policy no matter what it was used for. However, as I kept checking for the best rates I found 3 more insurance companies that said the truck did not have to be under a commercial policy unless it was used in that manner.
As I have many family member that own their own businesses in various states with various vehicles I have found a few interesting things out. A lot of what and how your vehicle is deemed commercial or not depends a lot on the state and the insurance company in which you are going through. My girlfriend works for Geico Insurance and she can fully back me up on this. She has a liscence for 5 different states and not many of them are the same.
Also I have a full towing package and power everything on my truck. It does have an upgraded alt from the factory. It does not have a second battery.
-------------------- Walkin' the dogs, and leadin' the puppies
posted
i dont like the put a limit on how many amps they can be, as someone with an older vehicle will read that and say they can go up to that limit, which if the vehicle came with a 40 amp alt and the limit is 140 then they now have 100 amps of now useable amperage, where a vehicle with a 140 amp alt doesnt as the reason the manufactures put these larger alts on the vehicles is they need them to run what is on them.
The manufactures don't put upgraded alts on cars for later use, like putting in a stereo, if it has an upgraded alt it is for a reason like more electornics on the vehicle (ie a 4wd controller, the more computer controls on the police package, not just for lights but has to have more for fuel and other performance needs)
I like the idea of a list of what the manufacture ratings were. and if there was an option just make sure it is listed also and what the letter in the vehicles VIN number would be to show this and what the new output would be, then if your over that by say more then 10 amps, your dqed.
-------------------- ---JASON SMITH--- Man its been a long time Posts: 906 | From: Ozark, AL | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
the rule has to be easy to police. I mean the hole reason the move up rule is gone as I understand it is because it couldn't be policed. I work at a Dealership and my books don't tell me if a option was only for police and taxi or if it was a retail sales opt. I think you need to stick to OE or Rebuilt to OE standards, weather that be the base opt. or a upgraded opt.
-------------------- Posts: 1074 | From: Ione, CA | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Why not allow 1 18 in street A and 2 in street B? A single 18 would only have about 20 square inch advantage over a pair of 12's as opposed to a nearly 200 square inch disadvantage (compared to four 12's) the way the the 10th draft states with a single 18 being in street B.
Also, I believe that if a single 18 and four subwoofer amplifiers are allowed in street B, the 18 should be exempt from the dual voice coil restriction.
Thanks for even considering 18's for Street classes.
quote:Originally posted by Smitty: someone with an older vehicle will read that and say they can go up to that limit
Only if the alternator was was OEM equiped
if the vehicle came with a 40 amp alt and the limit is 140 then they now have 100 amps of now useable amperage
I am lost here. If the vehicle was equiped with a 40 amp alternator, then 40 amps is the "useable amperage".
where a vehicle with a 140 amp alt doesnt as the reason the manufactures put these larger alts on the vehicles is they need them to run what is on them.
Again, I am lost as to what you are claiming to be "usable amperage"
The manufactures don't put upgraded alts on cars for later use, like putting in a stereo, if it has an upgraded alt it is for a reason like more electornics on the vehicle (ie a 4wd controller, the more computer controls on the police package, not just for lights but has to have more for fuel and other performance needs)
I agree. If this was a reaction to me stating "new or old", I was referring to the actual purchase date of a vehicle. Many "new" vehicles may have higher alternator output than some older model vehicles, but at the same time, some "older" model vehicles may have a higher alternator output than some of the "newer" vehicles. ex. I once owned a 1978 cadillac, that came stock with an 80 amp alternator. I now drive a Geo Metro that has a 35 amp alternator.
quote:Originally posted by drummerzs: the rule has to be easy to police. I mean the hole reason the move up rule is gone as I understand it is because it couldn't be policed. I work at a Dealership and my books don't tell me if a option was only for police and taxi or if it was a retail sales opt. I think you need to stick to OE or Rebuilt to OE standards, weather that be the base opt. or a upgraded opt.
When I worked at a auto parts store, I has access to the information. True, it may not have been spelt out in a single form, but a quick glance through the books could yield great results. If an auto parts and supply store has this information, it is reasonably safe to assume that a dealership would have it also.
As for easily policing the situation, once a value has been determined, a amp meter could be used to insure that the alternator is not producing more than the alotted amount. It only takes a few seconds to connect the clamp style meter and perform the test, and would be a cost effective way of trying to keep the vehicles on an even level.
posted
I think we all need to sit back and take a deep breath.
Now, lets see what will make the CLASS better, not just make our car perfect for the class.
As far as the street class amp rules, I totally dont understand the "its unfair now, leave it how it was" mentality. Would someone PLEASE explain how letting others have 4 channels of amplification that will match up to the 4kw is unfair? Im not to bright, but to me that seems like making it MORE fair, by letting competitors pick from more brands of amps to accomplish the same thing.
Now on to the alternators. Here is a novel idea, make street competitors run with the vehicle OFF. Wow, no more alternator worries, who cars what alt is on the car. For those that say you can't produce enough power from a battery with no alt, THAT IS THE POINT. the limit for street is the battery, if you cant get more than 300 amps out of your battery then DONT USE AMPS THAT BIG. It is supposed to be the affordable class right? So dont complain about things that can save money, like no alt needed, and one battery.
On to the point that I have the most trouble with in the new rules. I dont know if you guys realize it, but the 2 sq foot over the console rule is going to turn extreme into a joke like USACi's port wars contests. With only 2 foot needed over the console, cars will look STUPID, and I for one will lose some respect for the extreme cars scores due to this rediculously small measurement allowance. I am NOT saying to make it like my car is, I am saying Make my car ILLEGAL too. The original rules said 4 sq ft, which would mean a rebuild for me( Im at 3 foot), but I would do it to make my car look more like a car, and not a passenger side box with a 288 inch port.
The only people who are in favor of 2 sq ft are the europeans, I would bet because they are already pushing the limits that far.
posted
nate is right...remove the street alt rule and have street class people run with the car off....problem solved....also if you have too large of an amp you wound not be able to restart your car..hehe
-------------------- Team TAZM Team Gates Exotic Dreamz Car Club Team Cartunes
quote:Originally posted by Wayne Harris: The limits that are imposed on the electrical systems in the Street Division are an important part of the equation for limiting amplifier power in this division.
The rules have never allowed upgraded or aftermarket alternators to be used in this division, regardless of whether the vehicle came with the upgrade or whether the alternator was replaced at the dealer or by the competitor.
How would you suggest that we word this rule? The goal is to prevent competitors from circumventing the electrical system limitations that are imposed on the Street Division.
How bout this....there is one way we can make all street cars have the same alt to work with......make a rule stating your car must be off in street class when you run through....this way it does not matter if i have a 165amp factory alt in my van and the guy beside me has a crx with a 60amp alt....with the cars off we are equil........problem solved....also this should alow for street people to upgrade their alts as they wish...since we would not have the cars running in the lanes...all of us would have a straight 12 to 13v and be at the mercey (spell) of our batteries.....
-------------------- Team TAZM Team Gates Exotic Dreamz Car Club Team Cartunes
posted
If the rules are amended, so that street vehicles are not allowed to be runing during the metering process, then the following rule would also need to be amended.
4-1 The vehicle must be driven into and out of the judging lanes.
It might slow down the competition too much, if many of the street competitor had to jump start the vehicles in order to drive it out of the lanes.
quote:Originally posted by Sid Grice: If the rules are amended, so that street vehicles are not allowed to be runing during the metering process, then the following rule would also need to be amended.
4-1 The vehicle must be driven into and out of the judging lanes.
It might slow down the competition too much, if many of the street competitor had to jump start the vehicles in order to drive it out of the lanes.
Well if they are running a true street amp that is not going to be a problem then is it
-------------------- Team TAZM Team Gates Exotic Dreamz Car Club Team Cartunes
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