posted
Rick, would you please post a picture of what used to be our competition vehicle, the truck, and see if anyone sees a problem with that vehicle competing in Street 1-2. I am curious as to what people see as a "commercial vehicle" and whether or not a judge or anyone else will know the difference.
Posts: 217 | From: California | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Wayne, The rules look great and will be a great addition to next season. Only a few people are arguing on small matters. Accomodate these people with some of their last concerns and finalize the rules. Lets drag and have a fun and safe season. Jeff
Posts: 1770 | From: elgin | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by firefly: Rick, would you please post a picture of what used to be our competition vehicle, the truck, and see if anyone sees a problem with that vehicle competing in Street 1-2. I am curious as to what people see as a "commercial vehicle" and whether or not a judge or anyone else will know the difference.
Sure thing, this used to be our comp vehicle..........THIS is commercial.
I think that I have said too much....................I must go now................the SPL Ninja's are upon me Need more power? UP YOURS!! with Excessive Amperage! Posts: 6116 | From: Northern California | Registered: Nov 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by navidriver: you arent allowing people to run option packages for vechicles such as high output alternators (even though it would still be OEM) but yet you will allow them to order a vehicles without a backseat in an extended cab truck? .
I Believe this is an excellent point and should be addressed. If you purchased a truck new that had a back seat you can't take it out. But you can order the same truck without the back seat and it's no problem. That's definitely a double standard.
What about a 4 wheel drive truck with a towing package. That is a VERY standard option and many of them upgrade the alternator with that package. But it CERTAINLY is NOT a commercial package. Why would it being a heavy duty truck with towing package so that you can pull a boat and still use it for competition make it unacceptable. If anything meets the true definition of Street it's a truck that is daily driven, used for recreation, and has an audio system for fun/competition. In my opinion that is a Terrible definition of being "commerical"
-------------------- Chris Dilbeck Jack of all trades, master of none. Posts: 95 | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
It wasn't purchased as a "commercial vehicle" it was just deemed one, when it came to the insurance and the vehicle registration tags. It wasn't used for sort of commercial work, we just liked it. The bottom line with this and the point is, there is too many things being thrown into the rules that are hard to police. I thought the whole purpose of getting rid of rules such as the move up rule was because it was too hard to police, but now more and more things are being added that equate to the same thing...too hard to police. We are not complaining about rules that may or may not impact us, we are just saying that when you go and change a bunch of things in the rules, it creates more things that will just need to be changed next season. I just don't understand what happend to "NO MAJOR CHANGES" cause honestly, that is far from what happend. Wayne I realize that you try to do what is best for the organization and what you feel is best for the competitors and yes of course what helps the retailers and manufacturers but please keep in mind that the more things you add, delete, and change creates a smaller and smaller group of people that competes, and none of us want that. This is supposed to be fun, it's supposed to be a hobby, but now the comps are going to turn into a bunch of poor sports trying to find out what battery, what alt, what package a vehicle rather then looking at what they should really be paying attention to, which is the talent of whoever built the systems that are competing.
Posts: 217 | From: California | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
Give me a break. A police package cannot be found as a standard add on package to a non-commercial vehicle. PERIOD.
As far as ordering seating options or removing seating options? That's fine, this has gone on for many many years at your typical car dealership. [/QB]
Man I don't know where you live, but around here you can openly discuss and order what is called a "police package" standing on the lot with any average sales person. It's going to have a slightly stiffer spring rate and higher damping shocks, and possibly a beefed up alternator. It's nothing more then performance add on's. Every US manufacturer makes those parts readily available for cars in their line up which they sometimes sell in fleets to local law enforcement agencies. Being able to order the same options for performance (minus the computer upgrade) is not the same thing as being a commercial vehicle. The commercial "Fleet" vehicles are entirely different.
Truck body vehicles are often outfitted with what is called the police package so that they can be convered to fire and rescue trucks. But they sell those through the fleet division and do any necessary modification based on the intended use of the vehicle.
-------------------- Chris Dilbeck Jack of all trades, master of none. Posts: 95 | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Actually most of those "towing" packages also include a second battery as well. Which means you could only run your vehicle in street B, if you remove a battery then that is a illegal modification of the electrical system...
Does that work for everyone else?
-------------------- Quietest member of Broken Silence Competition Club
Posts: 1587 | From: Springfield, MO | Registered: Oct 1999
| IP: Logged |
Give me a break. A police package cannot be found as a standard add on package to a non-commercial vehicle. PERIOD.
As far as ordering seating options or removing seating options? That's fine, this has gone on for many many years at your typical car dealership.
Man I don't know where you live, but around here you can openly discuss and order what is called a "police package" standing on the lot with any average sales person. It's going to have a slightly stiffer spring rate and higher damping shocks, and possibly a beefed up alternator. It's nothing more then performance add on's. Every US manufacturer makes those parts readily available for cars in their line up which they sometimes sell in fleets to local law enforcement agencies. Being able to order the same options for performance (minus the computer upgrade) is not the same thing as being a commercial vehicle. The commercial "Fleet" vehicles are entirely different.
Truck body vehicles are often outfitted with what is called the police package so that they can be convered to fire and rescue trucks. But they sell those through the fleet division and do any necessary modification based on the intended use of the vehicle.[/QB]
These products are not mentioned on either Chevy's site or the goodwrench performance add on sites...seems pretty cut and dry to me.
I work at a stereo shop, just because you can discuss buying a high output alternator or second battery from me doesn't mean you can use it. The dealership is not the manufacturor of the vehicle, the manufacturor is.
-------------------- Quietest member of Broken Silence Competition Club
Posts: 1587 | From: Springfield, MO | Registered: Oct 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by jliehr: Actually most of those "towing" packages also include a second battery as well. Which means you could only run your vehicle in street B, if you remove a battery then that is a illegal modification of the electrical system...
Does that work for everyone else?
Ummmmmm.
The commercial vehicle above, definatly had a towing package on it, Agreed? Ok.....it only had one battery.
My point again is that we get rid of the move up rule because it is too hard to "police" yet we add one like THIS, how hard do you think this is going to be? Now the judges have to be amp experts, alt experts, battery experts, and car electricians now
I think that I have said too much....................I must go now................the SPL Ninja's are upon me Need more power? UP YOURS!! with Excessive Amperage! Posts: 6116 | From: Northern California | Registered: Nov 1999
| IP: Logged |
Being available through the Commercial fleet division does not mean that vehicles with similar options are not available through normal retail sales centers. You found the Fleet Sales web page. It is made to market the same trucks that they sell on the lots to people for use in specific applications. Look at the basic options package. The alternator is 130 amps. Now, go to Chevrolet.com and look up Tahoe. Then click on the Z71 4x4 edition. Once that comes up click on specs. The 4x4 edition comes with a 145 amp alternator. It's bigger then the commercial model that you pointed out. But it's on their retail site. In this case the link you provided has an Inferior alternator compared to the standard alternator offering on a 4x4 Tahoe. This goes to show that there are different packages for different finish levels of the same vehicle. Now if you want to go further and investigate this then you'll find that there are a variety of alternator offerings available for this vehicle over the course of different years depending on the package ordered. These aren't commercial packages, Plain and simple.
The guideline shoud state OEM offerings only. No upgraded or altered alternators or regulators.
-------------------- Chris Dilbeck Jack of all trades, master of none. Posts: 95 | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
I think that I have said too much....................I must go now................the SPL Ninja's are upon me Need more power? UP YOURS!! with Excessive Amperage! Posts: 6116 | From: Northern California | Registered: Nov 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by firefly: Rick, would you please post a picture of what used to be our competition vehicle, the truck, and see if anyone sees a problem with that vehicle competing in Street 1-2. I am curious as to what people see as a "commercial vehicle" and whether or not a judge or anyone else will know the difference.
Sure thing, this used to be our comp vehicle..........THIS is commercial.
THIS is not
[IMG][/IMG]
Why is a Dually commercial? I pull my camper and horse trailer with one. I took my wife out to dinner in one. They are available on a retail sales lot as well. What makes it commercial?
-------------------- Chris Dilbeck Jack of all trades, master of none. Posts: 95 | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Okay, I'm just really going to piss everyone off now.... if someone who is in a wheel chair purchases a vehicle from a dealership and has the modifications made to it to accomodate a wheelchair lift and any other necassary equipement and therefore has to have the alternator to handle that, does that mean that his/her vehicle is then deemed a commercial vehicle and they would not be able to compete? I would hate to see the ADA write up on that one....
Sorry just had to throw it in there.
Posts: 217 | From: California | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by firefly: Rick, would you please post a picture of what used to be our competition vehicle, the truck, and see if anyone sees a problem with that vehicle competing in Street 1-2. I am curious as to what people see as a "commercial vehicle" and whether or not a judge or anyone else will know the difference.
Sure thing, this used to be our comp vehicle..........THIS is commercial.
THIS is not
[IMG][/IMG]
Why is a Dually commercial? I pull my camper and horse trailer with one. I took my wife out to dinner in one. They are available on a retail sales lot as well. What makes it commercial?
according to Farmer's Ins and CA DMV a dually is a commercial vehicle. Trust me I know, I paid the insurance fees and the tags on it, and believe me I paid a lot more because it was deemed a commercial vehicle, eventhough we just had it because we liked it.
Posts: 217 | From: California | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Who'sYourDaddy: Why is a Dually commercial? I pull my camper and horse trailer with one. I took my wife out to dinner in one. They are available on a retail sales lot as well. What makes it commercial?
I dunno, but the DMV said it was, and so did my insurance,
I think that I have said too much....................I must go now................the SPL Ninja's are upon me Need more power? UP YOURS!! with Excessive Amperage! Posts: 6116 | From: Northern California | Registered: Nov 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by firefly: Rick, would you please post a picture of what used to be our competition vehicle, the truck, and see if anyone sees a problem with that vehicle competing in Street 1-2. I am curious as to what people see as a "commercial vehicle" and whether or not a judge or anyone else will know the difference.
Sure thing, this used to be our comp vehicle..........THIS is commercial.
THIS is not
[IMG][/IMG]
Why is a Dually commercial? I pull my camper and horse trailer with one. I took my wife out to dinner in one. They are available on a retail sales lot as well. What makes it commercial?
Please post the specific rule that makes your Dually a commercial vehicle. I am not trying to continue the argument, I just want to know.
-------------------- Bobby Riley Art's Sound Chamber
Fifteen time SPL World Champions-----26 SPL World Records DB Drag == IASCA == USACi == MECA Posts: 3500 | From: Retirement Village in Branson Missouri. | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
You may replace a broken 400-Watt amplifier with another brand’s 400-Watt amplifier. You may not replace a 400-Watt amp with a 1000-Watt amp. (The replacement amp’s rated output power must be within +/- 20% of the original amp’s rated output power.)
why is there any concern with replacing a broken amp with one that is up to 20% less powerful.
Example: I knew of one Street 1-2 competitor at the 2002 World Finals who came to finals with 2 amps: one for competing, one for backup. The amps were a Rockford bD 1500 (1500 watts) and an Earthquake PH-D2(2000 watts). This competitor was using the PH-D2 for qualifying; he had the bD 1500 for backup. According to the rules, if the ph-d2 had gone up in flames, the competitor COULD NOT have been able to switch to the db1500 because it is 25% less power (according to the manufacturers) than the PH-D2. DOES THIS MAKE ANY SENSE???
scenario #2: Let's say a competitor is using a 2000 watt amp to qualify. the amp breaks and he then uses his backup 1600 watt amp (within 20% of the original amp) in round one of eliminations. the competitor wins his elimination round, but his backup amp is now toast. So, he inspects his original amp (2000 watts) and realizes that he only popped a fuse; he changes the fuse and puts the original amp (2000 watts) back in the vehicle. A problem arises here: the 2000 watt amp is now 33% more powerful than the 1500 watt amp it replaces.
Question: what is the judges call on this matter? also, why is the less than 20% part mentioned in the rules? is there a potential loophole that I'm missing here?
thanks for reading this lengthy question!
-------------------- Andrew Harper
2002 STREET 3-4 6th Place World Finals 2003 Street B 2nd Place Spring Break Nationals Posts: 1702 | From: Vero Beach, FL | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think that you'll find that is a state by state classification based on the way they tax personal property. The insurance company bites you in the rear because of how it is classified by the state. Some states tax by value, others by weight, others a combination of how the vehicle is classified.
-------------------- Chris Dilbeck Jack of all trades, master of none. Posts: 95 | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by firefly: Rick, would you please post a picture of what used to be our competition vehicle, the truck, and see if anyone sees a problem with that vehicle competing in Street 1-2. I am curious as to what people see as a "commercial vehicle" and whether or not a judge or anyone else will know the difference.
Sure thing, this used to be our comp vehicle..........THIS is commercial.
THIS is not
[IMG][/IMG]
Why is a Dually commercial? I pull my camper and horse trailer with one. I took my wife out to dinner in one. They are available on a retail sales lot as well. What makes it commercial?
Please post the specific rule that makes your Dually a commercial vehicle. I am not trying to continue the argument, I just want to know.
There is no specific rule that states that the dually is a "commercial vehicle" the point we are trying to make is that when you say that any "commercial package" is not allowed in Street does not work. Our dually was deemed a "commercial vehicle" by our insurance company and our DMV, it had a high output alt and a huge battery, why because it was a 1 ton vehicle and needed it, but we did not use it as a commercial vehicle, therefore, it wouldn't have been fair to say that we couldn't use that truck to compete in Street.
Posts: 217 | From: California | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well isn't it funny how a hand full of people can be trying to make the same point and end up looking as though they are arguing. That truck was classified as a commercial vehicle. But can be purchased on a retail lot, is very usable for a variety of Non-commercial applications, and happens to be a vehicle that has a wide range of options FROM THE FACTORY which would effect the ratings on the charging system. (if it were a diesel it would have a larger alternator and two batteries from the factory without upgrade) Not to mentioen that being classified as commercial or not is not uniform from state to state, or even from manufacturer to manufacturer.
That commercial classification rule is the worst decision put in the rule book so far. Many current DBDrag competitors will be disqualified due to this new rule. Far more people will be effected by this then they would competing against the 4KW.
posted
Once the rules are finalized, it is the competitor's responsibility to abide by those rules. Granted, the judges may not always catch a person who is cheating, but if you do get caught cheating, the penalties will be quite harsh.
I believe that many loopholes have been closed and that many other rules have been significantly clarified.
-------------------- "Keep it Loud and Make me Proud!"
quote:Originally posted by Wayne Harris: Once the rules are finalized, it is the competitor's responsibility to abide by those rules. Granted, the judges may not always catch a person who is cheating, but if you do get caught cheating, the penalties will be quite harsh.
I believe that many loopholes have been closed and that many other rules have been significantly clarified.
Have you made a definition as to what a Commercial vehicle is? To me, that classification is very open to interpretation.
-------------------- Chris Dilbeck Jack of all trades, master of none. Posts: 95 | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic