quote:Originally posted by Wayne Harris: I also agree that there should be a deadline on new product introductions. For example, no new products 90 days prior to finals, or something like that. This will ensure that ALL competitors have an opportunity to use REAL products at the Finals if they so choose.
That's more than fair, but good luck enforcing it.
Tech would be a nightmare, we all know what lurks within isn't always what it seems to be.
-------------------- Carlton Duty Jr. (Undisclosed)
Posts: 288 | From: Chino Hills, CA, USA | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
that is good...but instead of 90days it should be the point cutoff...like no new products are allowed at finals unless they were released before the points cut off
--------------------
2008 Spring Break Nationals Street B Champion 153.2dB 2008 dBDrag North American Finals 3rd Place Street A 155.0dB
A user of many brands of gear whose name cannot be said Posts: 3169 | From: Canada | Registered: Dec 2000
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Wait, what is a Real Member. Just asking not to cause a fight. Im trying to be positive here by suggesting something. Dont be negitive Bob, lets let some other people see what they think.
Real members are those who are currently paid members. I dont see anything negative in my last post.
BTW, I know Alan gave you my phone number. If you would like to call me a ****, a ****, or ****. Please feel free to call. Just in case you cant reach me at work, my cell number is 660-651-5315.
-------------------- Bobby Riley Art's Sound Chamber
Fifteen time SPL World Champions-----26 SPL World Records DB Drag == IASCA == USACi == MECA
Posts: 3500 | From: Retirement Village in Branson Missouri. | Registered: May 1999
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Real members are those who are currently paid members. I dont see anything negative in my last post.
BTW, I know Alan gave you my phone number. If you would like to call me a ****, a ****, or ****. Please feel free to call. Just in case you cant reach me at work, my cell number is 660-651-5315.
No Bob, really, I was just asking for clarifaction. Not to start a harsh arguement.
The reason for my post was to make sure that any aspect of "Commercially Available" that affects my dealings weather it be Business or Personal is clearly spelled out and I/We will follow the set guidelines to a T.
Thanks for your input,
Ben
-------------------- Ben Fisher igotbass@comcast.net
Posts: 750 | From: Pittsburgh PA, Grant Ave 126 | Registered: Nov 1999
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We are working on this. Does anyone have any suggestions that they would like to contribute? Remember, the goal is to ensure that the products are REAL consumer products that are available for anyone to purchase if they so choose.
ShockingCanada ... Last warning. You slander me (or anyone else) once more and you are history on this website. Moderators take note.
-------------------- "Keep it Loud and Make me Proud!"
posted
Use the one of the many buyer's guides and a outline, and then have any of the manufacturer's email you as to any additions before the cut-off date. I'm sure that any competitor that is using equipment that isn't listed in the buyer's guide will have no difficulty convincing a manufacturer to send you a simple email about the product.
And to cut down on "custom" product, do we need to mandate a certain number of a product sold before it is considered commericially available, for example 10-15-20- even 100? Kind of like the homologation rules in stock car racing during the 60's and 70's? I'm sure that the manufacturer could provide these receipts in the email when they notify you about the product. This would prevent some manufacturers from putting a huge MSRP ($5,000+) on equipment when they are selling them to select competitors at significantly below that (or even giving them away for free as part of a sponsorship).
-------------------- Team Shedluv Team Sweep Team Kicker Team JBL
Actually, the "list" is already available. Just look in the CAR AUDIO AND ELECTRONICS magazine (Directory issues). This could be one way to determine what is commercially available. Or not.
This could still be a problem, because some of the small companies still get left out and I know of at least one major company that had all of its amps left out of last year's guide.
ask manufacturers just to send a list of available products as soon as they can, and any updates. Im pretty sure many of them will be happy to do so. All they have to do is send model numbers and we can check up on the list. When you contact them, tell them that their help would be greatly appreciated and if a product is not listed in the list then a customer may be not allow to compete and they will be very upset with the manufacturer
then publish them on this site so use the competitors know what is allowed and what isn't.
this is a good step foward in making this sport more fair for all competitors.
jaggy
-------------------- Digital Designs...true to the source
Posts: 1959 | From: England, UK | Registered: Dec 2000
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posted
I say make every finals competitor submit a bill of sale for products before the competition. Oh yeah, and it has to be from a DB Drag Retailer also . Support your local dealer
-------------------- Quietest member of Broken Silence Competition Club
Posts: 1587 | From: Springfield, MO | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
but a competitor needs a way to check if the products they are using are legal in db drag racing, the simplest way is to compile a list, with the help of the manufacturer this would be done ever soo quickly.
jaggy
-------------------- Digital Designs...true to the source
Posts: 1959 | From: England, UK | Registered: Dec 2000
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Hey You know what we still cant buy a Zapco 4K and we live in Canada..... Commercially available I think not...... 2 Zapco 9.0 Yes I beleive so......
We need hard restrictions of what is and isnt commercially available in this car audio industry. Example: I will design my own 20000 watt amp that is only available to a certain few people for 30000 dollars alongside my 30 fake reciepts than say I sold 30 of these amplifiers.
These are a couple of the problems with commercially available. See knowing what is and isn't commercially available has to go both ways what is available in the USA cant be commercially available if the rest of the world cant get it.
Example Zapco 4K
Same with custom made subwoofers there should be at least someone competing with it for a certain amount of time with proof they were competing with it. I can throw a subwoofer in my sub box and tell everyone its a different subwoofer but I beleive there should be solid proof at a Multipoint event if it is new to the Db Drag Racing circuit.
On another note setting really high outrageous retail prices for equipment is not fair for the average consumer. 6000 Canadian for a Zapco 4K what kind of retail is that. What street competitor do you know of that can afford one of these???
There has to be equal fairness.......
See ya
-------------------- Team Beyond Audio Team FX AUDIO Ben DelGrosso 8th in the world SS 1-2 no wall 2001
2 Beyond Audio Inhuman 18's for 2002 Thanks to Donald Hebig, Ray Choy, Rob Oszust, RW Audio and Crossfire.
Posts: 400 | From: Sherwood Park, Alberta | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
i don't wanna throw this thread on a tangent, but what's the simplest way of defining commercially available?
If you can get it, it's available. If you can get it with money, it's commercially available.
I dunno if everyone gets a chance to vote on this subject, but why not just lift the commercially available rule?
What consequences will we have? let's think about the consequences of lifting the rule, and then make the rule trying to stop any bad consequences from lifting the current rule.
just my thoughts, any other ideas?
-------------------- Mike Miguez
All motor CRX! Who wants some? In memory of 9/11/2001 THE FLAG STILL FLIES!
Posts: 2209 | From: Beaumont TX, USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
cost of equipment is an issue that cannot be solved, it is completely upto the manufacturer how much an item costs.
but the commercially available issue is one that should be solved to keep everything fair.
ok, i know $4000 amplifiers in street class is a bit outrageous but if a person really wants to spend $4000 on Street 1-2 and then thats upto them. This is why the other rule about Street1-2 Finalists have to move to SuperStreet came into affect.
make a list, also make a function where competitors can upload unlisted models that the dbra can look into and then added later on.
jaggy
-------------------- Digital Designs...true to the source
Posts: 1959 | From: England, UK | Registered: Dec 2000
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quote:Originally posted by jliehr: ...Oh yeah, and it has to be from a DB Drag Retailer also . Support your local dealer
Keep it up!!! I like how you think!!!!
-------------------- Bobby Riley Art's Sound Chamber
Fifteen time SPL World Champions-----26 SPL World Records DB Drag == IASCA == USACi == MECA Posts: 3500 | From: Retirement Village in Branson Missouri. | Registered: May 1999
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posted
First off, I want to say that DB Drag will not be sucessful if its main concern is the 175 competitors that go to finals.
Everyone is ALWAYS saying we need more prize money, and we need more national sponsors... Well guess what, companies could give a flying flip about reaching finals atendees. I would go so far as to say that most manufacturers have little interest in reaching the people that post on this board. Manufacturers want to reach the people that come into my shop, and thousands of other shops, everyday and pay... you guesses it... RETAIL.
Why would ANYONE want to reach any finals bound competitors? We want it all for free, or very close to it.. but then we want the manufacturers to fork out 100s of thousands of dollars, to keep up happy while running someone elses equipment? AINT GONNA HAPPEN.
I dont see how, in the same breath, some competitors want Brand X to sponsor their sport, AND say they would never run that same equipment.
All of this plays a crucial role in the commercially available equipment debate. If we allow custom, one-off equipment at finals, thats what everyone will use to be competitive. If thats ALL that is being used, the only people that would be interested in sponsoring DB Drag would be the one-off manufacturer. WELL GUESS WHAT, If a company only makes custom one-off equipment, they will never have the capital to sponsor db drag. HOW DOES THAT HELP ANYONE?
Letting a manufacturer turn in a list of equipment, no matter how far before finals, is worthless too. I mean, I could turn in a list of 10 different things that I think I MAY make, and then if I make them just for finals, they are legal. MAIN POINT HERE IS, Just because someone talks about building something DOESN'T mean its available.
Rules debates EVERY year are always the same. Everyone wants the rules for the masses laid out specifically for the 15 people in their class that will make it to finals. I STRONGLY suggest that Wayne NOT OPEN ANY RULES DISCUSSIONS to anyone, unless it is specifically aimed at finals rules/restrictions.
Why does USACi manage to keep going? Its not because of the heavy hitters in each class making it to finals. Its because of the THOUSANDS of entry level competitors that go to USACi events because they actually have a class where 140s isn't a joke. And where people can compete with a real world system, without being made to look like a fool.
Some people need to think HOW to make things work, not just saying they are broke.
quote:Originally posted by jliehr: I say make every finals competitor submit a bill of sale for products before the competition. Oh yeah, and it has to be from a DB Drag Retailer also . Support your local dealer
is pyramid or boss a dbdrag retailer? so if i wanted to run pyramid subs and amps, i couldn't? i don't know if those two actually are, i was just using them as examples.....
posted
Thnking about what Nathan (EA1) said, what would the "intent" be for having a "commercially available" equipment a rule?
Is it to support the manufacturers that support dBDRA? Is it to deter non supportive manufacturer? Is it to help assist in the future growth of the audio industry? Is it to "reward" manufacturers who re-invest back into the audio industry? Is it to "blemish" the manufacturers who do not reinforce the audio market?
I am just curious. I feel that...to find a perfect solution, first one must determine why a change is warranted.
Please forgive me, I simply want to know, and the best way to learn, is to ask.
posted
There used to be a forum on this site called "dBDrag Rules Clarifications", I haven't seen it in a while. Users could post there and ask what's "commercially available" or we might take the following suggestion...
The solution for what's "commercially available" is going to be a little tough and cost some time and money... but here it goes...
A master list of dBDrag acceptable equipment that may be used for finals will need to be maintained. To start, it should be amplifiers and subwoofers.
To simplify the creation of this list, you may wish to start with only models that are under contention and not worry about the 99% of the equipment we all know would be acceptable through common sense.
The list will be maintained either by dBDrag (Wayne Harris) or an appointed official designee. It will need to be updated weekly at a minimum. It will posted at the dbdragracing.com website along with the rules.
DBDrag members will be able to ask a dBDrag officiating council what is legal for competition. Possibly in the way of a forum.
Most items can be added without a vote. But, when an item comes under contention it could be put to a vote.
What is commercially available could be decided by a council of 3 certified dBDrag judges, 1 Wayne Harris, and 1 vote taken from the member competitor base as a whole.
It would be up to the designee dBDrag certified judges to make an effort to validate an item as commercially available.
This will be a total of 5 votes. Those 5 votes either add or remove an amplifier or subwoofer from the list.
Of course, we can take all the voting out and have Wayne make all the decisions and still keep a list.
quote:Originally posted by Major Jam: ...have Wayne make all the decisions...
I like that. This way we only have ONE stone to throw, instead of FIVE.
Actually, what you have proposed is a good starting point. With some minor details worked out, it could be an effective way to define "allowable" equipment. Good job.
posted
the published lists that come out in the magazines are usually outdated before they hit the racks. if it is going to be one person or five people determining the validity of the equipment, there still needs to be a clear set of guidelines, so that the average person can look at something and say," that won't/will be allowed".
posted
Being a lesser competitor I know how frustrating it is to watch people mow you over with special equipment. Have seen that more in other formats. I think Equipment used should appear in the company brochure, and the subs should be exactly as the specs in the brochure describe them. You see no offence to so people but I have seen equipment that I could not find in brochures. I think these special limits should only apply to Street and Supper Street. And I think the brochures should be avaliable to the public. That is just my what I think.
-------------------- I do not warrent my own signature yet.
Patrick Boling Posts: 1312 | From: El Paso TX USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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