posted
The improvement that I suggest for the street classes is to monitor the actual power consumption of the amplifiers. Power is equal to current multiplied by voltage. The judge could look at the fuse size being used and check the battery voltage to determine the maximum power that is being used. This would allow for a maximum wattage to be instituted without the problem of having companies rate their amplifiers ultra conservatively. This would definitely level the playing field for everyone.
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quote:Originally posted by Dave Lawrence: I really wish some of the more veteran competitors would contribute to this discussion.. I know of alot that share my same thoughts.
"Guess you've never heard of ASA, ARCA, Craftsman Trucks or the Busch Series, huh? Or even college football and basketball? Man Dave, take your head out of the big green van and watch some ESPN."
Wow it's amazing how bad you miss my point. Those are the minor leagues and I want DBDRA to rise above the minors and go major. THERE ARE NO MINOR LEAGUE PLAYERS IN THE MAJORS........PERIOD..... And maybe I do have a big head, but didn't I earn it.
And Brett, I don't mean to be a **** but I really don't think your opinion matters. The people that matter are the people that are putting on events and the competitors, not the spectators. Do you have a say in the rules for the NFL, no. So why do you think your thoughts should count here. I attended 8 triple point events last year and World Finals. I did not see any other person go to more events besides me or Shock. I was there I saw the problems first hand.
And just a little tidbit of info. DBDRA currently tracks over 3000 competirors. Of those 3000 how many do you think have memberships. Less than 350 that's right. Half the people go out get points all season and then if they are loud enough buy a membership and get an invite. How is that fair to Wayne.
I will agree that there are to many extreme classes. But that is not what this discussion is about.
[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: Dave Lawrence ]
Ok Dave hear you go. I've have been in car audio for 17yrs. I've seen car stereo grow. I have competed against the likes of Mark Fakuda, Ken Noga (Cerwin Vega's Factory vehicle), Brantly Waites, Martin Taylor and others who were kings of car audio when you were riding a big wheel. I know your young and you think you showed the the world how bad street is and you made a statement. Well you did more damage than good. If your that good than simply move up in class and make positive suggestion to improve the street class instead of exploit it. When car audio competitions started we were all newbies. We learn by making mistakes and improving. If you want to be real about this, a true street vehicle plays music. We used flashdance or sheffield labs cd to hit our numbers. That takes true talent. The Street Class is important to the growth of DB Drags not a punishment. I myself competed in Street simply because I didnt want to spend a bunch of money or render my truck useless for anything else. Did I beat people unfairly like you , yes I did and I'm just as guilty as you in that. Do I think street should go to finals hell yea. Street Class should be a real daily driver that plays music and should play music to get it's score and play for more than 10secs. Most songs are 3 minutes so it should play for at lest 10 secs. without a problem. Classes are the easy part. Rules are the hard part, but to say that because street had the most problems let's just get rid of it, you might think that the largest amount of members is worth fighting for. So instead of tearing DB Drag down how about tring to build it up. Sorry about rambling, but I have a passion for car audio otherwise I would have quite along time ago.
P.S. If you want my statis you got my name and my page is wrong some how I got someone else's stat page for this is my first year under my own name.
posted
The bottom line is how do we keep the class fair to the newbies and keep it at finals? The way I see it is manufactures are the problem with their bending the rules. I say put a MSRP Cap on the equipment used and the only way to bend that rule is to make it affordable to the newbies. Who knows, we might see the 4000w zapco amp for $300.00 and signatures for $100.00! It is the only way to keep it affordable and competitive. Same rules as before with price cap. Sorry but some one had to say this.
-------------------- -Donald Hebig -All Out S.P.L. Saskatchewan's dB Drag event promoter -Check the Termpro homepage partners for the companies I support. Posts: 2622 | From: Borden, Saskatchewan. Canada | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
I also forgot, I agree with the time limit for memberships. To many people wait till the last minute that cause Wayne grief. Pay at the beginning of each season or no finals.
-------------------- -Donald Hebig -All Out S.P.L. Saskatchewan's dB Drag event promoter -Check the Termpro homepage partners for the companies I support. Posts: 2622 | From: Borden, Saskatchewan. Canada | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Originally posted by dB Don: I also forgot, I agree with the time limit for memberships. To many people wait till the last minute that cause Wayne grief. Pay at the beginning of each season or no finals.
posted
My thoughts for a re-formulated street class:
Have a pro-street class, here are some of my ideas.
No passenger compartment modifications No alternator modifications, re-windings or replacement allowed
Batteries- 1 battery allowed per amp (1 for PS 1-2, 2 for PS 3-4). All batteries must be installed in the engine compartment, or in a non harardous location in the cargo area of the vehicle. Batteries must be charged by the vehicles stock charging system, no charging by an external charging source during the competition will be allowed in street. [Intent- to insure that the vehicle resembles a “stock” electrical system}
In street 3-4 a second battery is allowed: providing that it is the same make and model of battery, does not pose a threat to the vehicle, competitor or spectators safety at any point during the run (any perceived danger will result in immediate disqualification from the competition).
Interior- All seats installed from the factory must be able to function. If a seat is removable, it may be removed for competition, however it is still considered a passenger area and must remain unobstructed by any part of the sound system.
Seats must remain fully operational at all times of the competition, rear seats may be folded for competition, but must be unabated in movement to original position. Front seats must be adjusted so that safe vehicle operation would be possible. This is determined by visual inspection, the headrest must remain above the highest area of the dash at the headrests minimal level of extension (it’s lowest resting point).
Systems are limited to use of 12” subwoofers with a maximum of 2 voice coils per driver. All equipment in street class must be commercially available from a dB Drag racing retailer. It is a competitor’s responsibility to prove that his product is available commercially. Any product that is questionable may be contested at any certified show at a cost of $50. The $50 acts as a wager (if the contest is proven false, the contested receives the money), the person who files a claim must submit the claim before eliminations start. After elimination rounds start the contest fee is $100 before any elimination round. At any certified show a vehicle audit (a protest against the legitimacy of the vehicle) may be requested at a fee of $1000. If any contest is proven true, the violator will be disqualified from the competition, and a report for possible further disciplinary action will be forwarded to the dBDRA. The cut off date for equipment availability will be the final certified event of the year.
Points accumulation Points shall be awarded as any other class
At least 75% of points must be obtained in the Pro Street division to attend finals
At least 66% of points of points for super street must be earned to attend super street finals (no more than 25% obtained in pro street)
At least 50% of points must be earned in Extreme for an invitation, no more than 10% may be earned in pro street
All multiple point events must be earned for the division the invitation is for [i.e.- competitor may not compete in pro street at a multiple point event and receive the multiplier for another division] changing to a different division results in reduction of multiple point event points to single point status. {Division is defined by Pro Street, Super Street or Extreme, not by class]
Other than that, it's all fair game!
As far as novice street class? I say let people who run (and promote) the shows decide the best way to handle these things in their "neck of the woods". It's already painfully obvious that trying to create a nationwide class for a local competitor has provided one headache after another. Nobody knows how to serve the newbie better than the people who are going to sell them their equipment and deal with them often. These rerailers should also be responsible for "recruiting" new competitors to membership status. Maybe we can have a retailer of the year award to give dealers who go the extra mile for dB Drag the recognition they desearve!
On another line of thought I just want to thank Wayne for allowing everyone a chance to speak their mind in these discussions. It is truly a privlidge that many are taking for granted. I know Wayne could just go ahead and say "It's my organization, and I will make the rules" , but instead he has came to all competitors and said this is OUR organization, and given us a voice in it's format and rules. So thank you again Wayne!
[ 12-14-2001: Message edited by: jliehr ]
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Posts: 1587 | From: Springfield, MO | Registered: Oct 1999
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-------------------- Josh Jones Precision Audio 2002 Super Street 1-2 NW World Finalist Team Soundstream Posts: 419 | From: Lebanon | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
ok ... i do not have the time now to read the 6 pages to see if it has already been brought up. here is my thoughts.
have a street non-pro and a street pro ... both at finals. the street pro's just add the box behind the rear door ... aka sliding doors for vans... and the non-pro's no money at finals... when you start out in this game its about status ... who cares about the money. iasca proved that even with no payout at finals people would show up.
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Posts: 2102 | From: odenton, md , usa | Registered: May 1999
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posted
My suggestion it just to make a few changes to the existing street classes.
1. 2000wt rms cap for 1-2 and 4000wt for 3-4. It isnt all that expencive to get that kind of power and you can still use that much in a "true" street system. 2. If you qualify for finals, regardless if you go or not, you should be bumped to SS for the next seson. 3. For street class only, At comps if you pay the full $20, $40 or $60 for the points event things are as normal, you get points toard finals and a DB Drag page. If you are just a local guy who just wants to get metered and get local "bragging rights" You can pay $10 but you get no points or stats page. 4. sponsered vehicals and those owned by shops and professonal instalers(guys who work for shops)should not be aloud in street class. 5. other that this we need to clear up all of the loop holes and such as box position in vans.
-------------------- Team TAZM Team Gates Exotic Dreamz Car Club Team Cartunes
quote:Originally posted by donaldm: [QB]My suggestion it just to make a few changes to the existing street classes.
1. 2000wt rms cap for 1-2 and 4000wt for 3-4. It isnt all that expencive to get that kind of power and you can still use that much in a "true" street system. QB]
Well nope I dont think so Us Canadians and well I'll speak for the Europeans we all go through distributors so we pay double of you.
I think what everyone has to ask themselves is what is Street Class???
Is it a fun class or a competitive class.
I feel if you make it competitive it should be friendly.
So it should not be offered I beleive the normal street class should be fun.
I strongly am for this.
-------------------- Team Beyond Audio Team FX AUDIO Ben DelGrosso 8th in the world SS 1-2 no wall 2001
2 Beyond Audio Inhuman 18's for 2002 Thanks to Donald Hebig, Ray Choy, Rob Oszust, RW Audio and Crossfire.
Posts: 400 | From: Sherwood Park, Alberta | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
man, this is gonna be really confusing for Wayne...there are like 160 posts and very few people can agree. I say leave it up to Waynes good judgement to make a first draft and then have a vote (poll style) for minor changes
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2008 Spring Break Nationals Street B Champion 153.2dB 2008 dBDrag North American Finals 3rd Place Street A 155.0dB
A user of many brands of gear whose name cannot be said Posts: 3169 | From: Canada | Registered: Dec 2000
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posted
After reading all these ideas, i think the street and pro street is best so far. ive tried competing in superstreet 1-2, and its hard to continue when you get beat by over 10 db simply because of monetary reasons. after my system got stolen, ive decided to start over and try street class, but if that class is not able to go to finals...why bother. i am a very serious competitor, i just cant afford 8-16 amps, extra batteries, huge upgraded alternators, microphone to do testing, money for supplies...it adds up very fast. pro-street with restrictions with street rules and enclosure being behind the furthest door jam or seat is fine by me.im going to try and join db drag this year, along with renewed membership to USACI, but if street (or no pro-street) is taken away or not able to go to finals....then im not even going to give the idea of joining dbdrag a second chance. Just out of curiousity, how many people really drive a cargovan on a daily basis?
-------------------- "The cause and solution to all of Car Audio's problems" That Beerhat Guy 1 C-V Stroker 12d2 ID 6.5 components Kicker XS100 and ZR360 Posts: 251 | From: Houston,Tx | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:Originally posted by ShockingCanada: man, this is gonna be really confusing for Wayne...there are like 160 posts and very few people can agree. I say leave it up to Waynes good judgement to make a first draft and then have a vote (poll style) for minor changes
Thats the best idea i've heard yet..
quote:Originally posted by Wayne Harris:
No cargo vans in the Street Division.
If the vehicle has removable seats, then the enclosure must be behind the trailing edge of the door jamb of the backmost door when competing in the Street Division.
These are very good ideas...
[ 12-15-2001: Message edited by: donaldm ]
-------------------- Team TAZM Team Gates Exotic Dreamz Car Club Team Cartunes
quote:Originally posted by donaldm: My suggestion it just to make a few changes to the existing street classes.
1. 2000wt rms cap for 1-2 and 4000wt for 3-4. It isnt all that expencive to get that kind of power and you can still use that much in a "true" street system. 2. If you qualify for finals, regardless if you go or not, you should be bumped to SS for the next seson. 3. For street class only, At comps if you pay the full $20, $40 or $60 for the points event things are as normal, you get points toard finals and a DB Drag page. If you are just a local guy who just wants to get metered and get local "bragging rights" You can pay $10, $20 or $30(depending on the # or points the event is) but you get no points or stats page. 4. sponsered vehicals and those owned by shops and professonal instalers(guys who work for shops)should not be aloud in street class. 5. other that this we need to clear up all of the loop holes and such as box position in vans.
Also to add,
6. A single 15 can be run in Street 1-2 as long as the rest of the system adhears to the street class rules.
[ 12-15-2001: Message edited by: donaldm ]
-------------------- Team TAZM Team Gates Exotic Dreamz Car Club Team Cartunes
quote:Originally posted by DrLowfreq: After reading all these ideas, i think the street and pro street is best so far. ive tried competing in superstreet 1-2, and its hard to continue when you get beat by over 10 db simply because of monetary reasons. after my system got stolen, ive decided to start over and try street class, but if that class is not able to go to finals...why bother. i am a very serious competitor, i just cant afford 8-16 amps, extra batteries, huge upgraded alternators, microphone to do testing, money for supplies...it adds up very fast. pro-street with restrictions with street rules and enclosure being behind the furthest door jam or seat is fine by me.im going to try and join db drag this year, along with renewed membership to USACI, but if street (or no pro-street) is taken away or not able to go to finals....then im not even going to give the idea of joining dbdrag a second chance. Just out of curiousity, how many people really drive a cargovan on a daily basis?
My thauts exactly...
-------------------- Team TAZM Team Gates Exotic Dreamz Car Club Team Cartunes
posted
As long as there is a fundamental contradiction in terms, ie: full range 'nubie-Street' systems competing within a 'one-note' format, there will always be serious dB level and fairness issues.
This is why having a real nubie 'Street' class at finals cannot both work and be fair.
For the better part of 2 seasons it has been obvious to many that the need for a more balanced 'ship' is needed within the ranks and classes of the sport, especially at the lower level classes.
Look at the scores from finals and you will see a very similar score for most of the classes - all very near that 168dB - 172dB mark, and yet there are TEN NON-STREET CLASSES?
Competition is competition whether it's a deck power & 6x9 class, or a 48,000 watt/48 woofer class - the spirit/idea is the same, competition by good competitors within the class - whatever that class may be.
Therefore I believe in fewer classes in SS and Extreme - (1 woofer/2-4 woofers/5+...?) and more so called 'Street' classes where the size and number of woofers, batteries, channels of amplification, and enclosure/interior modifications are designed in such a way that the newer/less wealthy competitor, and the competitor who isn't willing to permanently destroy the vehicles interior, may also have a forum for World Finals level competition.
The reason, in my opinion, that the Street classes are so popular is because of the more friendly cost, and enforced limitations within those classes, which, for many of us only ADD to the challenge.
As far as a newbie class, there should be a class where the newbie competitor can compete for the local trophy, and, (for members only!) internet points/standing ie: State, country, and world internet standing, but no finals, and no 2nd season competitors for the very bottom (nubie) class which should be something like a 3-10", 2-12", 1-15" woofer class, and current 'STREET' limitations as far as electrical system, enclosure location, normal seats, and so on...
And drop any amplifier limitation for the nubie class - they are already limited by the electrical system, just allow a total of 2 batteries, and let them fight it out regarding amplifiers, without finals, this class will be dominated by some real STREET pounders, and not one note wonders - especially if they must play a music cd, instead of a tone cd.
I believe this would bring the 'old school' fun back into the local level, and offer more 'interim' classes for those (of us) unwilling/unable to compete on a 170dB+ SS/Extreme level.
AND MORE 12" WOOFER CLASSES!!
Sorry, I know, ...another book!
-------------------- "I'm feeling very humble lately, but I'm sure I have the strength of character to fight it" -Bob Hope
"Only YOU can prevent AMPLIFIRES!" -jarfunkz
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Q Senior Member Original Member # 740
Posts: 1934 | From: Somewhere Out Mountainbiking The Sierra Nevada | Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
The biggest question is, what is concidered a pro?? I have been competing for 6 months in street 1-2. I have a 2000wt amp and a pair of 12L7s ported and cant break 150 but since this is my second DB Drag season and my 7th overall in car audio competition am i a pro?? I would think not.Now as for people who work for shops and get payed to do installs would technicaly be pros, right??
I have been to about 10 events, 2 double and 8 single and have only been to one that had more than 7 street 1-2 competitors. At that one i finnished 9th, it was my first show. My point is that we will not have enough competitors at each event to run 2 street classes, pro and amiture. The best thing that could be done is to put a power cap on the street class and clear up the loop holes that were discovered at finals. IMO the power cap should be around 1500 to 2000wts for 1-2 and 3000 to 4000wts for 3-4. As for the rest of the classes i say since SS has 9+ then there is no reason for Extreme to have 9-12 and 13+, just combind them into one ex 9+ class. There isnt enough competitors in eather to fill out all the spots a finals anyway.
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posted
Now as for the "one note" stuff, i use the pause button on my remote like 3/4 of the street competitors do. I see nothing wrong with that. Instead of making a ristriction so we in street class would have to use frequency sweeps just make a rule stating that in street class you must use a HZ below 50.
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posted
I would first like to state that I have competed in Street and SS this season so I understand both sides. One thing I have seen neglected is fans of DBDRA. What is something that catches the eye of both the manufacturers and fans, big numbers. Now I know that Street hold their own with the numbers they do with the limit to equipment and rules. However, go to a person that does know something about dB Drag and tell them you are doing 153 dBs and watch their reaction. Now, another person and tell them you are doing 168 dB. Big difference in reaction. The point is the bigger numbers will draw the bigger crowds. If you have a show where there will be more lower numbers than higher numbers, there will be less anticipation. This is why there is a need for more SS and Ext classes than Street classes. I'm not suggesting adding classes, just stating why we should not look into combining those divisions and expanding Street. I think Street needs to go back to the real newbies and local kids like it was meant to be. I competed in Street and got out because I thought of it as being unfair to the local kids. I was beating them anywhere from 10-0.1 dB and it still wasn't right. I see a few post where people are saying that Street is being taken away from dB Drag. Well it's really not, it's just being made into a division like it was meant to be. If the class wouldn't have been exploited the way it did, then there wouldn't be this problem. Just thought I would say what I could on this.
Jason Moore
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