posted
Hello, how is it ? Are in all Pandas allowed to remove the backseat our or not ? Like a Honda CRX, i think in US are all Hondas are allowed without backseat in Street Classes !
I hope we can have here clear rules !
Please write it how it is !
-------------------- Kreisel Walter Everybody knows my reference :-)
Distribution for: Digital Designs SPL-Dynamics Audiotec Fischer - BRAX / HELIX AUDIO CONTROL 2loud4you.com Competition Products KINETIK Batterys Posts: 137 | From: Austria | Registered: May 2003
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quote: Are in all Pandas allowed to remove the backseat our or not ?
That is a good question!
-------------------- Cactus Sounds CS Forum Life Begins After 5 World Championships. WR Holder SM 165.8db 5 x World Champ 4 x Euro Champ 4 X Swiss Champ 03 Loudest Smart In The World Posts: 7717 | From: Switzerland | Registered: Apr 2003
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As far as I heard, it's NOT in all pandas possible, some newer series have "real" seats which are not removable.
Üüüühh!!! Matze
-------------------- 2002 2nd Place German Champion Street 1-2 2002 3rd Place Champion certified score in the world in Street 1-2 2003 2nd Place German Champion Street A (152.1 dB) 2004 2nd Place ESB Champion Street A 2004 German Champion Street A 2004 EXT 3000 + 2 x Atomic AP10 D1 = 151,2 dB 2005 2nd Place ESB Champion Street A 2005 German Champion Street A Official german cheesecake provider of Alma Gates Posts: 657 | From: Griesheim, Germany | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote: But Whayne says when in one car is allowed, than in all cars it must be allowed ?? (or not) ??
I am not so sure about that one, I think that the ones that come with out clip out seats are not allowd to take out the seats.
-------------------- Cactus Sounds CS Forum Life Begins After 5 World Championships. WR Holder SM 165.8db 5 x World Champ 4 x Euro Champ 4 X Swiss Champ 03 Loudest Smart In The World Posts: 7717 | From: Switzerland | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Robert Norin "Swedish Head Judge" said that ALL Pandas are allowed to remove the backseat, when Richard Olofsson asked him about that at the triple point competiton at Vallentuna.
But email Wayne and ask him, then you know for shore.
posted
I disagree with Robert. I have answered this questions few times in the past. The very car in question has to have consumer removable seats. Not some other model somewhere in the World.
I have checked this with Steven Benton for example, just so we are on the same page with rule interpretations with some americans and some europeans.
If Wayne says you can remove backseats even they are screwed in, you need tools, its still ok just as long as you can find a same brand call somewhere from the world that has user removable seats - then I change my opinion, but before that if I am judging or if people asks from me, I give this answer and will NOT allow backseat removals in any other car than the very car the very competitor brings in and shows if the backseat is removable in his car.
With Pandas for example, it is something like models before 1985 has the stupid removable backseat (a rag between two pipes) and newer models has the backseats bolted on and are not removable.
Posts: 575 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2001
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quote: 3-8c Seats may be folded for competition, but may not be removed from the vehicle unless they were originally designed as a consumer removable component. Competitors who fold their seats must be able to demonstrate that the installation of the sound system does not interfere with the normal operation of the seats that were folded.
Additional Guidelines:
· Any removable seat that remains installed in the vehicle during competition will be treated identically to a permanently installed seat.
· If a removable seat has been removed from the vehicle prior to competition, then the officiating staff will treat the vehicle as if that seat doesn’t exist.
Posts: 1820 | From: Ljubljana, Slovenia | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Why don´t skip that rule for next year street is a car you use everyday with the stereo behind the backseat in the trunk under the hatrack/hatchback and not some window line
i think this rules do it allmost like ssnw if you have a car without backseat the car should go in ssnw and not street
-------------------- 2000 152.2dB, Prostreet 1-2, Mazda323F, 2 st RF Power12, 2 st RF 1000a2, SM 9:a 2001 154.9dB, Street 3-4, Saab 9-3T Sport, 4 st CV Vega124, 2 st RF 1000a2, SM 2:a EM 3:a 2002 152.9dB, SSNW 1-2, Saab 9-3T Sport, 1 st CV Stroker18d2, 4 st SPL Dynamics DIG-1450, SM 3:a NM 4:a 2003 152.6dB, SS 1-2, Citroën Ax Gt, 2 st CV Stroker15d2, 4 st SPL Dynamics DIG-1450, SM ?? NM ?? EM ?? --------------------- When Too Much Isn´t Enough Posts: 8 | From: Krylbo,Sweden | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
Hmm. People claims that WAYNE has ruled this in a way that you can remove backseats from ALL PANDAS AND ALL CRXs. (hearsay says Wayne has told this to Tor, Norway)
So I guess I just have to take my ruling back. So, if there is a CARX which has removable backseats or comes without backseats, then all CARX car take their backseats out even if they have to ulbolt, unscrew them or whatever.
Imo, bad ruling but lets live with that. We cant have it different to everyone!
Wayne, please tell at least your own 3X judges over there how to rule this, as they have wrong idea aswell. Why dont let everyone unbolt their backseats... anyone can say there is a model sold in Russia or somewhere without backseats and then you can take them out.
(Of course, better would be to change the rules next year as the backseats must stay on and be in no matter what. But ruling for this year has been little tricky.)
Posts: 575 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
So the big question is how shud this be. Its not only the Panda that have this problem they say that old Wolksvagen Golf nr1 has been sold without the back seat and then we have the Crx they have backseat and they are not made so you can just take them out... And the setup in the car is totaly different with the Backseat in.. So it would be nice to know before the European finals. I do not care how this rules is only that it shud be fare for all competitors.. Personaly i think that this class is for normal car that can take passengers in the backseat aswell.
So i hope Wayne see this and give us an answer...
--------------------
Richard Olofsson
4xEuropean Champion
2003 Street A World record holder 155.4 db
Posts: 288 | From: Enköping Sweden | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
Yes, because it effect all cars that is why I (and we) have seen it as it must be the very car in question, not other cars somewhere else.
With Panda it is very easy to determine. It is different model, even though it still is a Panda. The front mask if different so you know even from outside. We have both Pandas here and I just took pictures of both, showing how the seats are attached. In the Panda where you can take the seat out, there are those "holes" in the sides but in the other ones (Like Richards) the seat is bolted on and is totally different. Although, that seat also folds pretty nicely.
I still have hard time believing Wayne has ruled that all cars are allowed to take their seats out if there are some model somewhere with removable seats... (am I repeating myself??!)
If this ruling what Richard and Tor says that Wayne has done is true, I see it as ALL cars no matter of the brand or model can remove their seats. And that does not fit in with the written rules at all.
Sorry if I sound nasty or something, but these weird things with the rules makes me crazy. I hope some good will come out anyway.
Posts: 575 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I will read this topic, and get back to it with my opinion later tonight...
But, as I told you at Vallentuna, We can't and don't have time to check how each car is build and how much equipment it comes with originaly from the factory...
For me, a Panda is a Panda (it has the same look from the outside) For me a Volvo 855 is a Volvo 855, and a Volvo V70N is a Volvo V70N........
posted
(I posted this in the soundpressure forum, but same goes here)
If we have to legalize the whole line of cars from a manufacturer because some model has removable seats and other model do NOT, then we can go and legalize them in all cars with all models. You can not list cars that has a model with removable backseats or factory delivered model without backseats. Neither you can list cars that do not have them.
Only reasonable way to read the rulebook and force the rule is clearly to see every car case by case. If the car has bolted seats and all it is not legal to remove them, rules clearly says that. If the car in question has removable seats that we all can determine consumer removable by their operation and preferrably instructions or some mention in the owners manual.
It is VERY easy to determine which Fiat Panda models has removable backseats and which not. About Honda CRX's and VW Golfs and others, I can not say because I have not been able to compare or even see them that much. We don't have CRX's with removable backseats or original 2-seaters here. I don't care if somebody has a model with the proper requirements somewhere, I only care about the car that needs to be judged.
What if I take my backseats out from my Fiat Punto (Mk2 '01) ? They are attached with same amount of screws as in Panda and the brand is same. I have heard there (this is a lie to make a point) is a 2-seater model in Brasil and an older Punto mk1 model sold in Thailand with removable backseats, so I it is now legal to remove my backseats, right ? I don't think so.
The point beeing, it is 100 times easier to judge the very car in question, the car that competitor enters to a competition than to find and check all cars, all models, all countries, and not just one brand as some cars are sold with different brands and names in other countries, but the car is still the same. (f.ex. if we are allowing all Pandas to remove their bolted seats, no matter what model or year the car is, then we also have to allow all Seats to do so too)
I would not like to argue about these issues with my friends, but as you know me, I make no exceptions if one in question is a friend or just some dude I don't know or even like for that matter. Fair play
Posts: 575 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I think the easiest way to do in this issue is to let all cars that don´t have any backseat goes in SSNW and all street cars have to have the backseat in the vehicle
-------------------- 2000 152.2dB, Prostreet 1-2, Mazda323F, 2 st RF Power12, 2 st RF 1000a2, SM 9:a 2001 154.9dB, Street 3-4, Saab 9-3T Sport, 4 st CV Vega124, 2 st RF 1000a2, SM 2:a EM 3:a 2002 152.9dB, SSNW 1-2, Saab 9-3T Sport, 1 st CV Stroker18d2, 4 st SPL Dynamics DIG-1450, SM 3:a NM 4:a 2003 152.6dB, SS 1-2, Citroën Ax Gt, 2 st CV Stroker15d2, 4 st SPL Dynamics DIG-1450, SM ?? NM ?? EM ?? --------------------- When Too Much Isn´t Enough Posts: 8 | From: Krylbo,Sweden | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
Jimmy, yes those suggestions about the rule changes for Street class are good and hopefully something will be done for 2004. However, we are talking about this season, 2003, and the rules that exists now. We can't change the rules that much during the season, we should just see the rules are forced the same everywhere, at least from parts that are clear and clearly stated in the rules. There always be those tricky grey areas with Extremes of course... but lets not get into those now.
Posts: 575 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I meant for the next season not this I understand that you can´t change the rulebook before the finals I hope you can find a way for this to be easier to next year both for the judges and the competitors
-------------------- 2000 152.2dB, Prostreet 1-2, Mazda323F, 2 st RF Power12, 2 st RF 1000a2, SM 9:a 2001 154.9dB, Street 3-4, Saab 9-3T Sport, 4 st CV Vega124, 2 st RF 1000a2, SM 2:a EM 3:a 2002 152.9dB, SSNW 1-2, Saab 9-3T Sport, 1 st CV Stroker18d2, 4 st SPL Dynamics DIG-1450, SM 3:a NM 4:a 2003 152.6dB, SS 1-2, Citroën Ax Gt, 2 st CV Stroker15d2, 4 st SPL Dynamics DIG-1450, SM ?? NM ?? EM ?? --------------------- When Too Much Isn´t Enough Posts: 8 | From: Krylbo,Sweden | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
I also think that for 2004 we need better explanations what is allowed with back seats.
IMO (for 2004)
if car is registered for 4-5 persons, than seats should be inside
if seats are factory designed to be folded, than competitor can fold them down, even if amp is on back side of seat.
and competitors should prove to head Judge that if seats are down or up, that they don't interfere with box position.
Posts: 1820 | From: Ljubljana, Slovenia | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Something like that would be nice Peter. Although, we have to forget about the "registered" part, because there are differencies between countries about registrations and all. And then any car could be without backseats, because you can take them out and register your car as 2-seater. At least in some countries, can not say if it would go through in all countries.
It is very difficult to make it fair for everyone but we can try our best and hopefully Wayne will try too Posts: 575 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I am not saying much for 2003. Rules are clear, seats can go out in some cars.
But in real meaning of STREET car, then they must look as stock as possible. And we must think about ''normal use of car''. So if box is in place of rear seats, than it is not normal use of car.
Jani have good point about what is legal and what notin different countries. But that are national representatives for that to check which car is legal or not.
For instance in Slovenia it is possible to change registration from 4 seat version just to 2 seats, but than car is registered as ''Cargo'' - commercial wehicle, and it can't pass dBDrag street rules. But basicaly we all know what is 2 seater car. Posts: 1820 | From: Ljubljana, Slovenia | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
I think I can help here. I can tell you for a fact that wayne did not say that if one car, such as the panda can remove backseats, then all pandas can remove backseats. I have a fellow team member who has a Dodge Caravan, in Daytona Beach at the Spring Break Nationals, they looked over his van to make sure it had removable seats, eventhough most caravans have a removable seat. So, if your panda has a removable backseat, you can take it out. If it has a seat that requires tools to take out, then you can't.
-------------------- "A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history--with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila." - unknown
quote:NDMstang65 (9:54:55 PM): scottie gagged me once...
Posts: 8931 | From: Camdenton, Missouri, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Thank you Johnny for backing me up on this one. I dont believe Wayne saying so either, but I dont want to believe anyone is a lier, so it must of been just some misunderstanding when they claimed Wayne has told so.
But it looks like Wayne needs to give some input on this one before everyone believes how it goes.
Posts: 575 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2001
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