quote:Originally posted by odog: oh yeah the tahoe has seen its last show next year will be a new vehicle and maybe a new class and hopefully upgraded equipment.
Hate to hear that odog,good luck on your new vehicle.
-------------------- MR. SEARS (LOUD) LIL WHITE CAVY TEAM HIGH X-CURSION STEVE(TEAM CAPTAIN) TEAM DD 2009 SS-NW AND STREET C(THEY'RE HERE) 2008 TRUNK MODIFIED WORLD RECORD HOLDER (153)12v certified legal TL 2008 2007 PRO TRUNK WORLD FINALS (150.9<150.2)12v 2006 PRO TRUNK 1x WORLD RECORD HOLDER(151.2)12v 2005 NSPL TRUNK STOCK WORLD RECORD HOLDER(148.1)12v 2005 1x NSPL TRUNK STOCK WORLD CHAMPION 12v 2004 2nd PLACE TRUNK STOCK WORLD FINALIST (141.6)12v 1989 Installed my first system Posts: 1588 | From: Elizabeth City,NC | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Alright here are my test results from about 10 minutes ago. I couldn't sleep so I went to an empty parking lot to do some testing. One note I did add threaded rod to the box and all my other numbers were from before the threaded rod was added, but I don't think that will make a huge difference if any for power testing. Anyway here are my numbers:
These numbers were done using my Craftsman clamp meter that isn't a true rms meter. If you were to multiply the power by .707 to calculate for rms you would get 1448 watts. Now that sounds about right since that's what the rest of you are getting out of this amp at around the same impedence. I think that there needs to be some checking at the next NSPL event cause I thought that it was funny that each event I kept making more power when I've done nothing to increase the power at all. It may be user error since Fred doesn't clamp the cars himself, he has Mike do it for him most of the time. If this is an issue at the events then it needs to be addressed very soon since I would like to be told the correct clamp numbers. This also means that I should have quite a bit more power to go before the cap in the class. The calculated rms numbers that I got tonight are very close to those that I remember getting when Jacob put his true rms meter in my car for testing. His meter did around 1550 if I remember right. Multiplying by .707 isn't always going to be dead on, but there is no way I'm making over 2000 watts at 1.7 ohms out of a 1500d.
-------------------- TEAM SUNDOWN AUDIO 2009 NSPL Car 1801-3600 Watt Record Holder: 151.2db 2009 NSPL Car 3601-Up Watt Record Holder: 152.6db 2009 NSPL Car Hardcore Record Holder: 155.2db 2009 NSPL Car 3601-UP, Car Hardcore, and Car Points World Champion Posts: 1847 | From: The Triad | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
glad to see that you got some testing done and that we are not all that crazy!! good luck to and I am sure that there is more in there befor eyou get to 3600 watts!!! see yo uon saturday!!
-------------------- TEAM DB UNIT (Master Yoda) 2006 Competition Only Hardcore Points Champion 2006 Competition Only Trunk Stock Points Champion 2007 Competition Only Trunk Stock Points Champion 2008 Competition Only Overall Points Champion http://www.competitiononly.com/ Authorized Second Skin Dealer www.secondskinaudio.com [IMG]
posted
I will have my meters with me Saturday. I will test mine along side Fred's to verify my result vs. his results.
If you or anyone else want to check power using my meters, let me know.
I use a Fluke multimeter and an Amprobe clamp meter. Both are True RMS and have peak hold.
-------------------- Team Outcast Team DB UNIT "Carolina Chapter" 1990 Honda CRX 2009 Iasca SBN Stock Pro 1 Champion 1989 Honda Civic Hatchback 2008 Iasca Adv. No Wall 1 North American Champion 2007 Db Drag 1st SM 3-4 and 4th Bass Race Florida Regionals 2007 2nd overall in US points and 9th overall in World 2007 Competion Only Pro and Hardcore Points Champion 2007 Meca M5 Points Champion and South Carolina Champion 2007 NSPL NW Points Champion 2007 NSPL Pro Points Champion 2006 NSPL Pro Points Champion
posted
If Fred is using "dual peak hold" - meaning just getting peak voltage and peak current - his numbers will always be higher than a real RMS reading like from my meter OR by actually looking at two meters and getting the numbers @ the same time.
Current and voltage don't peak at the same time so dual peak hold doesn't correspond to any actual power than happened at any given time.
-------------------- - Jacob Fuller Posts: 990 | From: Mooresville, NC | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:Originally posted by clkwrkorg36: but as long as every competitor is done the same it really doesn't matter.
True, but I would like to be able to do the actual power limit set for the class. It seems that in Walt's case by adding very little power he has seen quite a big gain. I may be able to add up to 700 more watts and that should translate into a nice gain for me as well since the setup that I have is very efficient.
On another note, can anyone explain why I've mysteriously been making more power each event without the addition of anything to increase my power? I promise you that I haven't touched my deck or amp settings either and each show I've increased in power. Yes, my score has gone up at each show, but the car has been able to do those numbers all along at the same power. We found that when we brace certain areas of the car it adds spl, so the burp volume has always been the same and the only thing that's changed is the bracing location. I find it kinda strange that I'm making more power everytime I step into the lanes.
One last thing. Jacob, do you even see it possible that a 1500d could make 2048 watts at 1.7 ohms on a 12 volt setup? What about 1747 at 1.7 on the same 12 volt setup. This is what I'm trying to point out. I don't even belive that the amp is capable of making this power at this impdedence to begin with and this is the power I'm told when I clamp at an event.
-------------------- TEAM SUNDOWN AUDIO 2009 NSPL Car 1801-3600 Watt Record Holder: 151.2db 2009 NSPL Car 3601-Up Watt Record Holder: 152.6db 2009 NSPL Car Hardcore Record Holder: 155.2db 2009 NSPL Car 3601-UP, Car Hardcore, and Car Points World Champion Posts: 1847 | From: The Triad | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
well there are several things that could change your readings from show to show! first thing I would want to check is the meter alot of times it will go out of calibration!! just needs to be checked and verified. another thing could be the humity in the air? I belive and I could be wrong? but the density of the air can have an affect on your reactive load on the amps and with such an efficent box the eppects could be dramitic. yet another thing that could be affecting the out put of the amp could be the bracing!! oddly that maybe causing you to see more power from the amp!! it has to do with the loading pressure of the car. those are just a few things to look at but I am sure that you have already tested thease things? There are several more things that could be doing this but that goes in to another story!!
-------------------- TEAM DB UNIT (Master Yoda) 2006 Competition Only Hardcore Points Champion 2006 Competition Only Trunk Stock Points Champion 2007 Competition Only Trunk Stock Points Champion 2008 Competition Only Overall Points Champion http://www.competitiononly.com/ Authorized Second Skin Dealer www.secondskinaudio.com [IMG]
posted
^^^Yeah but 1747 watts out of a 1500d at 1.7 ohms sounds like it's a little inflated doesn't it? The gains are nowhere near maxed and I burp on a Pioneer unit that has a max of volume 62 and my burp volume is 48. All the eq settings are set to negative 1 instead of just leaving them at flat like most people do. The only thing that is turned up at all on the deck is the sub output, but when I use an rca without the sub output the number doesn't change. I just prefer to have the sub control for my daily purposes.
-------------------- TEAM SUNDOWN AUDIO 2009 NSPL Car 1801-3600 Watt Record Holder: 151.2db 2009 NSPL Car 3601-Up Watt Record Holder: 152.6db 2009 NSPL Car Hardcore Record Holder: 155.2db 2009 NSPL Car 3601-UP, Car Hardcore, and Car Points World Champion Posts: 1847 | From: The Triad | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
it does seem a little inflated yes!! I am sorry there will be no spot on answer for this question? the only thing I can suggest is to buy a note book and keep notes on everything to see what changes!! I keep one aswellthings like
volume sub output bass output voltage drop high voltage for clamp amps weather bracing meter placement conerise amp Power
This takes a lot longer but well worth it in the end!! I found out that I need no bass boost on mine!! (dosn't help) but if I go up two clicks on the sub control I gain 2DB!!! at the same volume!! I also have seen where I can do 145DB with about 700 watts!! I hope that this will help you. I am glad to help if I can just let me know?
-------------------- TEAM DB UNIT (Master Yoda) 2006 Competition Only Hardcore Points Champion 2006 Competition Only Trunk Stock Points Champion 2007 Competition Only Trunk Stock Points Champion 2008 Competition Only Overall Points Champion http://www.competitiononly.com/ Authorized Second Skin Dealer www.secondskinaudio.com [IMG]
posted
you have to forget where the gain is, or where your headunit is. the gain on an amp is simply there to match the amp to YOUR headunit. most new amps can reach maximum output with a few millivolts, but they also can be adjusted to handle 8volts + depending on the amp. if you have the gain adjusted where the amp is at full clip at volume 8 of 35 then turning the volume up more, or gain is going to get you 0 more. i would imagine the difference your seeing is the temperature causing you to be farther or closer to your correct frequency. this in turn raises or lowers the impedance rise. so it could be the hotter it gets, the faster the speed of sound travels, and the farther you get from your note toward the next one up. this would cause the imp rise to go lower, and the system to use more power to do the same, or lower number. hope this helps.
quote:Originally posted by clkwrkorg36: you have to forget where the gain is, or where your headunit is. the gain on an amp is simply there to match the amp to YOUR headunit. most new amps can reach maximum output with a few millivolts, but they also can be adjusted to handle 8volts + depending on the amp. if you have the gain adjusted where the amp is at full clip at volume 8 of 35 then turning the volume up more, or gain is going to get you 0 more. i would imagine the difference your seeing is the temperature causing you to be farther or closer to your correct frequency. this in turn raises or lowers the impedance rise. so it could be the hotter it gets, the faster the speed of sound travels, and the farther you get from your note toward the next one up. this would cause the imp rise to go lower, and the system to use more power to do the same, or lower number. hope this helps.
2X
sorry about that Ryan I forgot about posting that one!! but yes add that to the LONG list of stuff to track!!
-------------------- TEAM DB UNIT (Master Yoda) 2006 Competition Only Hardcore Points Champion 2006 Competition Only Trunk Stock Points Champion 2007 Competition Only Trunk Stock Points Champion 2008 Competition Only Overall Points Champion http://www.competitiononly.com/ Authorized Second Skin Dealer www.secondskinaudio.com [IMG]
Very good points! I have tried to keep up with this info as well in my setups
-------------------- Team Outcast Team DB UNIT "Carolina Chapter" 1990 Honda CRX 2009 Iasca SBN Stock Pro 1 Champion 1989 Honda Civic Hatchback 2008 Iasca Adv. No Wall 1 North American Champion 2007 Db Drag 1st SM 3-4 and 4th Bass Race Florida Regionals 2007 2nd overall in US points and 9th overall in World 2007 Competion Only Pro and Hardcore Points Champion 2007 Meca M5 Points Champion and South Carolina Champion 2007 NSPL NW Points Champion 2007 NSPL Pro Points Champion 2006 NSPL Pro Points Champion
posted
I remember results from a previous show in High Point back in December with the same amps and same exact settings on them I did 15XX watts with a rise of 1.2 ohms. Now how the hell am I getting 1700+ watts out of the same amps, same exact volume, same exact everything on the amps and deck with a final impedence of 1.7+ ohms?
This makes no sense at all I am seeing a higher impedence out of the amps and they are supposedly making more power. I really don't think that this is possible and maybe something has changed on Fred's part the way that he is measuring power.
I will gladly test anyone's meters at this show to get an exact and accurate reading and if they vary from what has been recorded in the past then something needs to change now.
FOR THOSE OF YOU THAT MISSED SEVERAL TIMES BEFORE I HAVE NOT CHANGED A DAMN THING AS FAR AS THE SETTINGS ON THE DECK OR THE AMPS. EVERYTHING IS IDENTICAL AS WHEN I GOT MY POWER RESULTS IN HIGH POINT BEFORE AND ALSO WHEN JACOB DID POWER TESTS ON MY CAR. THE ONLY REAL THING THAT HAS CHANGED IS MY SCORE AND MY POWER TESTS SHOW THAT FRED'S ARE VERY HIGH FOR THE IMPEDENCE I'M SEEING.
-------------------- TEAM SUNDOWN AUDIO 2009 NSPL Car 1801-3600 Watt Record Holder: 151.2db 2009 NSPL Car 3601-Up Watt Record Holder: 152.6db 2009 NSPL Car Hardcore Record Holder: 155.2db 2009 NSPL Car 3601-UP, Car Hardcore, and Car Points World Champion Posts: 1847 | From: The Triad | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
both Waalt and I have the exact same meeters if you would like we can use both sets to test your theory out if you would like? but this goes back to my statment that maybe freds meeter is out of calibration but it might not be? it is hard to say with out doing a side by side test
-------------------- TEAM DB UNIT (Master Yoda) 2006 Competition Only Hardcore Points Champion 2006 Competition Only Trunk Stock Points Champion 2007 Competition Only Trunk Stock Points Champion 2008 Competition Only Overall Points Champion http://www.competitiononly.com/ Authorized Second Skin Dealer www.secondskinaudio.com [IMG]
posted
I can tell you this for sure. when Fred 1st clamped my car last year, he used an Amprobe clamp meter. So, I went and got one so I could have the same results he would have. However, at the Greenville show, I notice he was using a different meter. Not sure when he switched because I don't normally get clamped at his shows.
Isn't it also kind of ironic that something you would usually brag about(getting more power) is actually hurting you in this particular instance?
-------------------- Team Outcast Team DB UNIT "Carolina Chapter" 1990 Honda CRX 2009 Iasca SBN Stock Pro 1 Champion 1989 Honda Civic Hatchback 2008 Iasca Adv. No Wall 1 North American Champion 2007 Db Drag 1st SM 3-4 and 4th Bass Race Florida Regionals 2007 2nd overall in US points and 9th overall in World 2007 Competion Only Pro and Hardcore Points Champion 2007 Meca M5 Points Champion and South Carolina Champion 2007 NSPL NW Points Champion 2007 NSPL Pro Points Champion 2006 NSPL Pro Points Champion
posted
Well, as long as I see it on another meter that I'm making 1700+ out of my 1500d's I will drop the whole situation. I just find it strange that on my non true rms meter that I make 2048 watts and when I calculate for rms it's 1448 watts. The 1448 is more like the power I should be seeing and the fact that I'm geting 300 watts per amp and 600 more watts total than what I should be is why I'm starting to ask questions. Who wouldn't love to be able to run a bit more power in a class where your limited to power? That little bit that I could run could be worth up to .7 db's, and I would love to see that much more of an increase in power and score.
-------------------- TEAM SUNDOWN AUDIO 2009 NSPL Car 1801-3600 Watt Record Holder: 151.2db 2009 NSPL Car 3601-Up Watt Record Holder: 152.6db 2009 NSPL Car Hardcore Record Holder: 155.2db 2009 NSPL Car 3601-UP, Car Hardcore, and Car Points World Champion Posts: 1847 | From: The Triad | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
well just get with us at the show on saturday and we will see what the deal is!!
-------------------- TEAM DB UNIT (Master Yoda) 2006 Competition Only Hardcore Points Champion 2006 Competition Only Trunk Stock Points Champion 2007 Competition Only Trunk Stock Points Champion 2008 Competition Only Overall Points Champion http://www.competitiononly.com/ Authorized Second Skin Dealer www.secondskinaudio.com [IMG]
posted
ok, let's assume that fred uses a different clamp than he's used all year, and it reads lower. your still not proving anything, because everyone can go up on power now. then everyone's score will go up.
quote:Originally posted by clkwrkorg36: ok, let's assume that fred uses a different clamp than he's used all year, and it reads lower. your still not proving anything, because everyone can go up on power now. then everyone's score will go up.
Ryan,Zachs point,and my point is ok.....everyone else that runs a 1500,is clamping around the same power,with around the same impedance rise.Like I mentioned before power is power, watts is watts,impedance is impedance.I am going to go ahead and say it,it's possible that his current,and voltage readings could have been accindently been miscalculated,meaning numbers may have been wrote down wrong then caculated.Don't know,that's why we are going to try and resolve this.
-------------------- MR. SEARS (LOUD) LIL WHITE CAVY TEAM HIGH X-CURSION STEVE(TEAM CAPTAIN) TEAM DD 2009 SS-NW AND STREET C(THEY'RE HERE) 2008 TRUNK MODIFIED WORLD RECORD HOLDER (153)12v certified legal TL 2008 2007 PRO TRUNK WORLD FINALS (150.9<150.2)12v 2006 PRO TRUNK 1x WORLD RECORD HOLDER(151.2)12v 2005 NSPL TRUNK STOCK WORLD RECORD HOLDER(148.1)12v 2005 1x NSPL TRUNK STOCK WORLD CHAMPION 12v 2004 2nd PLACE TRUNK STOCK WORLD FINALIST (141.6)12v 1989 Installed my first system Posts: 1588 | From: Elizabeth City,NC | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Like Zach said,if Walts,and Raymonds meters determine,that Zach is indeed making 1700w,then hey...this dicussion will be over with,plain,and simple.
-------------------- MR. SEARS (LOUD) LIL WHITE CAVY TEAM HIGH X-CURSION STEVE(TEAM CAPTAIN) TEAM DD 2009 SS-NW AND STREET C(THEY'RE HERE) 2008 TRUNK MODIFIED WORLD RECORD HOLDER (153)12v certified legal TL 2008 2007 PRO TRUNK WORLD FINALS (150.9<150.2)12v 2006 PRO TRUNK 1x WORLD RECORD HOLDER(151.2)12v 2005 NSPL TRUNK STOCK WORLD RECORD HOLDER(148.1)12v 2005 1x NSPL TRUNK STOCK WORLD CHAMPION 12v 2004 2nd PLACE TRUNK STOCK WORLD FINALIST (141.6)12v 1989 Installed my first system Posts: 1588 | From: Elizabeth City,NC | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by clkwrkorg36: but as long as every competitor is done the same it really doesn't matter.
Not necessarily.
If Zach has a significantly different phase relationship than the other competitors his clamped dual peak hold readings will be different accordingly.
Zach peaks pretty low so it is possible that his phase relationship is a good bit different from Derrick and Walt who peak higher than he does.
Inductance is different at different frequencies therefore it's effect on the current lag varies by frequency as well.
It is also possible that the meters are not accurate at frequencies outside of the 50-60 Hz range of most of the AC circuits they were designed to measure.
Of course there is only so accurate one can hope to be without excessively complicated procedures or incredibly expensive equipment.
-------------------- - Jacob Fuller Posts: 990 | From: Mooresville, NC | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:Originally posted by sundownz: It is also possible that the meters are not accurate at frequencies outside of the 50-60 Hz range of most of the AC circuits they were designed to measure.
So Jacob....would you also agree that 1747w,is kind of high,for a 1500d,at an impedance rise,of 1.7-1.8 ohms?Because I do.
-------------------- MR. SEARS (LOUD) LIL WHITE CAVY TEAM HIGH X-CURSION STEVE(TEAM CAPTAIN) TEAM DD 2009 SS-NW AND STREET C(THEY'RE HERE) 2008 TRUNK MODIFIED WORLD RECORD HOLDER (153)12v certified legal TL 2008 2007 PRO TRUNK WORLD FINALS (150.9<150.2)12v 2006 PRO TRUNK 1x WORLD RECORD HOLDER(151.2)12v 2005 NSPL TRUNK STOCK WORLD RECORD HOLDER(148.1)12v 2005 1x NSPL TRUNK STOCK WORLD CHAMPION 12v 2004 2nd PLACE TRUNK STOCK WORLD FINALIST (141.6)12v 1989 Installed my first system Posts: 1588 | From: Elizabeth City,NC | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Hate to bring this back up. Did you find out anything? I think might have figured out why you are reading a higher wattage then others. I was testing my van for the upcoming 6/27 show, and I was getting some extremly high readings. Like 8000 watts out of 2 1500d's. Then I remembered something I was doing in my testing when I first got the amps, that I haven't been doing lately.
-------------------- '97 World Record with The Mean Machine Ama 501-1000 159.4 '97 158.2 with only six subs Pro 0-500 at finals Have not competed in TEN YEARS!!! 2009 NSPL Wall 2501-5000 World Record Holder. 156.9 2009 MECA Radical X-1 TN State Record Holder. 158.7 2009 Super Street 1-2 Posts: 141 | From: Nashville TN | Registered: Oct 2007
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