posted
I would like to discuss the following topics with regards to the 2008 competition season.
Class Equipment Limitations
Background: The dB Drag Racing Association was originally created as an industry support organization. Our mission is to stimulate interest in aftermarket auto sound and auto sound competition.
Premise: Aftermarket auto sound retailers host dB Drag Racing events. This creates interest in auto sound which in turn results in the sale of auto sound equipment. Essentially, retailers use dB Drag Racing as a marketing and promotional service to grow their business. Competitors benefit because they have an opportunity to compete in these events. Retailers benefit because they can sell and install aftermarket products. Manufacturers benefit because of the increased demand for auto sound products. The dBDRA benefits because of increased participation, shows, and memberships.
Issue: The products that dominate the Street Division are not the "everyday" auto sound products that are sold and installed by retailers. Retailers are hesitant to host events that promote products that they do not sell. Manufactuers are hesitant to spend marketing dollars on a format of competition that caters to "specialty, competition-specific" products.
Issue: The products that dominate the Street Division are too costly for the vast majority of auto sound enthusiasts. Many enthusiasts don't want to participate because they don't even have a reasonable chance of winning.
Issue: Competitor sponsorships by companies that manufacture "esoteric", competition-specific products hurt participation and growth of the organization. When a company gives a product to a contestant, the retailer does not have an opportunity to sell a product to that customer. Non-sponsored contestants are not interested in competing due to the high cost required to be competitive.
Issue: Legitimate manufacturers are hesistant to exhibit at the World Finals or sponsor tours because they feel they are providing a platform for small, specialty "companies" to market their products without contributing to the event (by exhibiting) or tour.
Summary
It is my belief that the Street Division should be restructured to address the issues listed above. Specifically, the auto sound components used in the Street Division should represent the normal, everyday products sold in retail establishments.
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[ 12-15-2007, 12:10 AM: Message edited by: Wayne Harris ]
-------------------- "Keep it Loud and Make me Proud!"
Noise proves nothing. Often a hen who has merely laid an egg cackles as if she laid an asteroid. -- Mark Twain "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" Posts: 500 | From: NORTHEAST | Registered: Jul 2007
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It is my belief that the Street Division should be restructured to address the issues listed above. Specifically, the auto sound components used in the Street Division should represent the normal, everyday products sold in retail establishments.
-- More to Follow --
Let me know how that works out for ya...LOL Just kidding. This will be a difficult task as so many things have already been tried and tested.
It may be a good idea to itemize past rules or classes, that have been eliminated or changed, that led us to where we are now.
For example - I am sure we will hear a few suggestions of pro and amature classes, but we know from history that this cannot be policed.
-------------------- Ed Lester, Team T3 Audio Team Maxxsonics Team Power Master Team Hooker Audio Team Second Skin Team RazorLite 4 time dB drag World Finalist. 2003, 2005, 2007, 2008 awsome guy at car audio stuff.
Technically astute
4 12" T3 Audio TSS V2s 1 HiFonics XXV Maxximus 8 Power Master D925s
Posts: 1662 | From: near Philly Pa | Registered: Dec 2006
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if i am forced to sell all my amps and battery's i better quit and spend my money on something else
to bad i already bought my 2008 membership i better waited till the rules where out
-------------------- Team Cactus Sounds 2004: 2nd place european finals street B 2005: european champion street C 2006: european champion street A 2007: european champion street C 2007: WORLD CHAMPION street C 2008: street C 2009: the end off an era , the beginning off a new, SS5+ Posts: 1237 | From: belgium | Registered: May 2002
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posted
----Originally posted by augustijnen Peter------- i would like to see the rules unchanged
if i am forced to sell all my amps and battery's i better quit and spend my money on something else
to bad i already bought my 2008 membership i better waited till the rules where out ---------------------------------------------------
This is a big concern. What about the addition of a Street Max 1-2 No Wall?
-------------------- Ed Lester, Team T3 Audio Team Maxxsonics Team Power Master Team Hooker Audio Team Second Skin Team RazorLite 4 time dB drag World Finalist. 2003, 2005, 2007, 2008 awsome guy at car audio stuff.
Technically astute
4 12" T3 Audio TSS V2s 1 HiFonics XXV Maxximus 8 Power Master D925s
Posts: 1662 | From: near Philly Pa | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
As a manufacturer, I totally agree with Wayne that something needs to be done to make Street classes more affordable, more accessable and now... more competitive as well.
We all know that any changes are going to invoke a tremendous amount of emotions for and against but I truly beleive some thing has to be done and it isn't going to make every one happy. Every year, new regulations and rules are applied to every form of competitive sport and no more then racing which our sport most significantly resembles.
Here are a few observations, identified problems and a few suggestions to consider. 1.Observation - No one wants to have to get rid of all of the very expensive equipment that they have already bought and worked so hard to get loud. 1A Problem - The very expensive equipment has allowed for the loudest scores but has become so expensive to compete at a high level or even a decently competitive level that it is discouraging and too expensive for beginners to even attempt to try and now that the World Finals is truly "World Wide", certain vehicles not available to everyone for various reasons has made for major advantages to those who have the vehicle and the expensive products. 1C Suggestions - in order for new commers as well as less wealthy veterans to be able to afford competitive products as well as affordable products that would at least allow them the opportunity to be competitive in Street classes, there will need to be some restriction to reduce these 4000, 5000, 8000 and 10,000 watt amps (and many vehicles have more then one), $1000 to $2000 subwoofers and $400 to $1500 batteries capabilities so a lesser expensive system can stand a chance. It needs to be put back in the car builders hands to design a better boxes, more efficient system and tuning secrets to get maximum output from there products. It also forces manufacturers to improve lesser powered / lesser expensive (but higher volume sales) products to be more efficient and produce more with less. To do this, you need to do one or both of the two following suggestions. - Require system fusing: * Street A: 200 amps of fusing (single amp: onwe 200 amp fuse, two amps: 100 amps per amp) * Street B: 300 amps of fusing (same rules as Street A) * Street C: 400 amps of fusing (same rules as street A) Maybe the fuse should be higher or lower which can be discused. * The fuses will need to be supplied (sold by) by the dBDRA and properly labeled just like the official CD. * The fuses can also be provided (sold) by dBDRA judges at the event. * The fuses must be installed with in 6 inches of the amps and accessable by the official judge will be the location of the official volt meter. *In a dispute, the judge may ask the competitor to replace the fuse in the presence of the judge.
- This will put every one on more evn terms and far less expensive products can be used and the winner will be determined by the better / smarter box builer or the guy with the most efficient set up or products.
I will rpovide an alternative after this one has been reviewed and commented on.
Posts: 1688 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
would a competitor have to buy a fuse to compete at their first event?
would the judges supply the fuses (would we have to have a large stock of them) ?
what happens if we run out before during a show because they blow?
do we replace them for free if they blow ?
what happens if they blow does the competitor get a d.q.?
does this create more problems than it solves is what i am asking myself?
this in my opinion is way to much but just that an opinion what about just limiting 1 run of power and ground per amp? just a thought not a rule mind you just provoking thought thats all......
Noise proves nothing. Often a hen who has merely laid an egg cackles as if she laid an asteroid. -- Mark Twain "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" Posts: 500 | From: NORTHEAST | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Why not just have a limit on MSRP for batteries in Street and Streetmax? You have a thread in rules saying the sound deadeners that are legal, illegal,etc. It wouldn't be hard to do.
Set an MSRP of 500 or 1000 maybe 750? I know people will say something about people taking out the internals of batteries and putting in better stuff but if you really have a problem and think someone is cheating or bending the rules thats what a protest is for right?
quote:Originally posted by psychoacoustics: would a competitor have to buy a fuse to compete at their first event? * -- Johns Reply: Yes. This would be no differant then having to know the rules of the class you will compete in as wellas having membership and an official CD. If you do not have a fuse, the judge will supply one at a cost. These fuses are not expensive.
would the judges supply the fuses (would we have to have a large stock of them) ? * --Johns Reply: Yes, the judges will have fuses as wellas most competitors will buy in advance from dBDRA in bulk which would be needed for testing. I don't think the judge would need to stock too many.
what happens if we run out before during a show because they blow? * --Johns Reply: Then you were not prepared and may have to borrow or buy some from another competitor. All forms of competitions come with responsibilities. IE: Extra tires, gas, racquets, golf balls, pucks, bats...
do we replace them for free if they blow ? * Johns Reply: No, the purpose and challenge is to run with in your power capabilities of the fuse. This is what limits the power you can run with out trying to have equipment restrictions which are easy to cheat.
what happens if they blow does the competitor get a d.q.? * --Johns Reply: Same result as if your CD skipped or your CD player/changer failed. If you didn't compete your burp, you didn't complete your burp.
does this create more problems than it solves is what i am asking myself? * --Johns reply: MECCA does this very successfully for many years. If you have a better idea to reduce competing costs, I'd love to hear and we can all discus it.
this in my opinion is way to much but just that an opinion what about just limiting 1 run of power and ground per amp? just a thought not a rule mind you just provoking thought thats all......
* --Johns Reply: I mentioned above that I had two suggestions. This was going to be my second one. The problem I see with one power/ground cable is that it is way too easy to cheat it. The length of cable under the carpet or vehicle from the battery to the amp (not seen part can be multiple lengths or larger then allowed. How would you know?
quote:Originally posted by AudioAnonymous: Why not just have a limit on MSRP for batteries in Street and Streetmax? You have a thread in rules saying the sound deadeners that are legal, illegal,etc. It wouldn't be hard to do.
Set an MSRP of 500 or 1000 maybe 750? I know people will say something about people taking out the internals of batteries and putting in better stuff but if you really have a problem and think someone is cheating or bending the rules thats what a protest is for right?
The majority of products used in Street classes are application specific products. They are built for competiton, we know sales are limited and no hopes of selling many in retail. So, most manufacturers (not all) have reduced there MSRP down to 10% to 30% over competitor costs which is 50-75% less then normal MSRP.
So, if the MSRP for brand X is $700 for a 3000 watt amp, some companies will simply lower there MSRP on there 4000 watt amp to $700.
This is easy to do and it would be unfair to compete with a far more powerful amp that had an MSRP lower then yours.
No one pays MSRP so those are inflated prices for the dealers to make money to consumers.
Posts: 1688 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
The length of cable under the carpet or vehicle from the battery to the amp (not seen part can be multiple lengths or larger then allowed. How would you know?
well i guess you wouldn't would ya?
all good points though but the fuse should be near the battery not the amp like it would be in a shop preformed safe design. how many cars have burned to the ground from this,i saw a picture of a crx at finals that was a complete loss so the guy came and watched
Noise proves nothing. Often a hen who has merely laid an egg cackles as if she laid an asteroid. -- Mark Twain "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" Posts: 500 | From: NORTHEAST | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by psychoacoustics: The length of cable under the carpet or vehicle from the battery to the amp (not seen part can be multiple lengths or larger then allowed. How would you know?
well i guess you wouldn't would ya?
all good points though but the fuse should be near the battery not the amp like it would be in a shop preformed safe design. how many cars have burned to the ground from this,i saw a picture of a crx at finals that was a complete loss so the guy came and watched
Of course the power wire should be fused at the battery also! I forgot to mention that. That's basic install practice.
Lets say I'm in the Street A 200 amp class. I put a 250 or 300 amp fuse at the battery and the official 200 amp at the amp so the judge will see that the amp is running off the correct fuse size.
If you were dependant on the battery fuse only during judging and not at the amp, again it would be very easy to cheat. A competitor would simply tap off of another power cable in the car to the amp power cable to help share the load of the 200 amp fuse at the battery.
Posts: 1688 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Team Maxxsonics - John:
quote:Originally posted by AudioAnonymous: Why not just have a limit on MSRP for batteries in Street and Streetmax? You have a thread in rules saying the sound deadeners that are legal, illegal,etc. It wouldn't be hard to do.
Set an MSRP of 500 or 1000 maybe 750? I know people will say something about people taking out the internals of batteries and putting in better stuff but if you really have a problem and think someone is cheating or bending the rules thats what a protest is for right?
The majority of products used in Street classes are application specific products. They are built for competiton, we know sales are limited and no hopes of selling many in retail. So, most manufacturers (not all) have reduced there MSRP down to 10% to 30% over competitor costs which is 50-75% less then normal MSRP.
So, if the MSRP for brand X is $700 for a 3000 watt amp, some companies will simply lower there MSRP on there 4000 watt amp to $700.
This is easy to do and it would be unfair to compete with a far more powerful amp that had an MSRP lower then yours.
No one pays MSRP so those are inflated prices for the dealers to make money to consumers.
I was talking about batteries and ONLY batteries. No amps sir.
You can talk all day about amps but when it comes down to it there's only so much power you can pull out of one battery.
the way i see the issue is that big money manufaturers are hesitant to invest in db drag because their products are rearly used in street class? the real issue at hand is capturing the advertising dollars?
the only REAL way to solve this would be to have street classes by brands. cuz no other rule can really force people to buy and compete with the brands whos support dbdra seeks.
there are brands that are widely used, that are competition worthy mainstream brands - kicker, soundstream, hifonics and even lanzar. But all their competition worthy products arent exactly cheap either.......so that brings us back to square one.
fuse rule might drive the cost down, but it wont force people to go buy a $1200 2000 watt alpine amp over a $500 3000 watt earthquake (popular brand i'd say) amp or an american bass (a lesser known brand)amp that would also produce 3000 watts. it might work at first but only on new commers who will eventually catch on.
i still think a better solution is Mini Street (maybe with the fuse rule)with proper rules, membership fees and offered at finals. Just have a smaller point requirement for it.
street is the biggest class, why push it around and force changes, why not just expand it and cater to the 'average car audio inthusiast' market. we've already made street bigger once - street max classes turned out to be successful, maybe it's time to seriously consider and officially create mini street?
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2006 Street A - 152.7 Certified 2007 Street C - 154.8 Certified 2007 Street A - 154.4 Certified 2008 Street B - 155.5 Certified 2008 Street C - 156.3 Certified
TEAM FEAR OF BASS Posts: 3006 | From: Toronto, On, Canada | Registered: Feb 2001
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Only 50% of the amps today, Rename Street to Street Extreme A, Street Extreme B, Street Extreme C.
MAKE a NEW Street devision, that is STREET, and use all our experience to make a STREET devision that is REALY STREET....
We will problaby see more world finals on multiple locations, in europe we have about 80% (I'am guessing) of our competitors in todays street classes - that been said - we can not mess alot with that division... BUT we can make a new devision that is for real street cars. And we can cut classes in Extreme and SS for that. We don't see that much Extreme cars any more... Rememember a few years back, when competitors said that we should make Extreme 1, THEN they will start competing in Extreme again, well were are they?
Here is my proposal:
Street A - NEW DEVISION Street B - NEW DEVISION Street C - NEW DEVISION (I'am not sure if we need "C") Street Extreme A - Todays Street A, but just 50% of amps Street Extreme B - Todays Street B, but just 50% of amps Street Extreme C - Todays Street C, but just 50% of amps (Remove this class if SS 1-2NW) Street Max 1-2, but just 50% of amps Super Street 1-2NW - (Remove this class if Street Extreme C will go.) Super Street 1-2 Super Street 3+ Extreme 1+
Remove Bass Race 160.0 and up, rename Bass Race 150.0-159.9 to Bass Race 150.0 and up
Make a whole new format for example: "BASS THUNDER", meassuring 3 different frq for example 30 Hz, 50 Hz and 70 Hz (Maybe this can be changed by the event promotor), ad these togheter and devide that on 3 (TERMLAB will do this automaticly after the run), you have a score... All 3 meassurement will be done when the car is in the lane (No charging, just 30 sec between the run, and termlab starts a new "round" automaticly after the 30 sec pause). No head to head format, just play 3 times, and you are done. (MAYBE make the 2 best play head to head - that can be fun.)
Just two classes for example 1-5 woofers and 5+ woofers. NO other rules. This will make ALOT of new competitors. Because its EASY to understand...
What do you think?
-------------------- Tor Aamodt
*Head Judge at World finals 2004, 2006 and 2007 *Judge at World finals 2002 - 2003 *Norwegian dB Drag Racing Association. (NdBDRA) *Certified multi point judge.
posted
Personally, I agree that new classes need to be created if we do not restrict current street classes but I'm not too sure about giving existing classes new names and putting new classes into the old names.
Doesn't this create confusion with all of the State and World records for Street A, B and C? Can you really through away all of those records?
Can the new Street A ever compete with old Street A records?
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