quote:Originally posted by Chmielewski: I have just one question to that topic. We all know that almost all street cars are not visible inside of it by any other competitor. So its easy to change the setup during the competition. Who controls that? Cause other competitors can not do that because they even can not take a look in other cars.
For example in 2005,european finals Austria,i know for shure a competitor in my class changed his coils to another impedance during the event. I did'nt protest against it,because i know at that time wich car was going to win the finals,and that car was mine But never less,this was really cheating,major infraction against the rules,the funny thing is now the same people protest against annything they can find because they wil come not even close to the winner in there categorie Something to think about no?? Judges should measure the impedance at the beginning of the contest while judging the car,and check it during the contest.
Rules only state that it has to be the same imp at the WF .
1st : there werent any 2 ohm coils availlable anymore . 2nd : we lost 0.7 db and a crackt cone , so we had to recone . 3th : it was OK'ed by the judges .
posted
BTW. Does some one know what kind of things has been generate this rule ? Maybe some amplifier swapping + sand bagging during event ? Usually there has been a problem what has been fixed by making new rule.
-------------------- -Life begins after 175 db- 4.1 dB's over the goal Posts: 841 | From: Finland | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
I think people were swapping out woofers to a lower impedance coil in later rounds to gain spl, but running the higher impedance early on so they didnt push their equipment as hard.
-------------------- "A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history--with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila." - unknown
quote:NDMstang65 (9:54:55 PM): scottie gagged me once...
Posts: 9084 | From: Camdenton, Missouri, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
There were also incidents of manufacturers giving competitors equipment at finals, then they would take out the current equipment and upgrade right there.
I know in the past this created issues for a few manufacturers that had sponsored someone, only to have them swap out for a "better" woofer at finals. Kind of a slap to the face of the manufacturers. That in turn will leave them with a bad taste concerning dB Drag (even though it was the unethical actions of individuals)
Thats where part of the "intent" of the rule came from.
-------------------- Mike Extreme Audio www.ExtremeAudio.org Extreme Van for Sale! Team JBL Team Fi Certified 179.3 dB 2005/06/07 dB Drag Extreme 3-4 World Champion 3 Time Deathmatch Participant 2004/05/06/07 IDBL World Record Holder 2004/2005 MECA World Record Holder 2006 USACi B&K WR SuperMod Ext.
Posts: 1413 | From: Mechanicsville, Va USA | Registered: Nov 1999
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posted
Ah yes, the infamous "selling" of 4kws when they first came out, I forgot about that.
-------------------- "A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history--with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila." - unknown
quote:NDMstang65 (9:54:55 PM): scottie gagged me once...
Posts: 9084 | From: Camdenton, Missouri, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Actually thats not even what I'm talking about, just some subwoofer incidents I recall, nothing scandalous.
But yeah, I remember the Zapco Auction from casino night (which was great BTW)
-------------------- Mike Extreme Audio www.ExtremeAudio.org Extreme Van for Sale! Team JBL Team Fi Certified 179.3 dB 2005/06/07 dB Drag Extreme 3-4 World Champion 3 Time Deathmatch Participant 2004/05/06/07 IDBL World Record Holder 2004/2005 MECA World Record Holder 2006 USACi B&K WR SuperMod Ext.
Posts: 1413 | From: Mechanicsville, Va USA | Registered: Nov 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Chmielewski: I have just one question to that topic. We all know that almost all street cars are not visible inside of it by any other competitor. So its easy to change the setup during the competition. Who controls that? Cause other competitors can not do that because they even can not take a look in other cars.
For example in 2005,european finals Austria,i know for shure a competitor in my class changed his coils to another impedance during the event. I did'nt protest against it,because i know at that time wich car was going to win the finals,and that car was mine But never less,this was really cheating,major infraction against the rules,the funny thing is now the same people protest against annything they can find because they wil come not even close to the winner in there categorie Something to think about no?? Judges should measure the impedance at the beginning of the contest while judging the car,and check it during the contest.
Rules only state that it has to be the same imp at the WF .
1st : there werent any 2 ohm coils availlable anymore . 2nd : we lost 0.7 db and a crackt cone , so we had to recone . 3th : it was OK'ed by the judges .
When it's in your advantage you always have an answer. 1st : **** happens 2st : same 3th : good for you,al the things that you have pointed on the last weeks are always ok'ed by the judges. So stop "living for this **** and get a life" Maybe the best advice ever. For myself this is one of the reasons i wil not compete at wf with my street a car. In the future i'm going to support my team al the way .
-------------------- Kicker competition team
streetA 2005,157.2db with only 2 Kicker 10" L7's. Posts: 298 | From: belgium | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Chmielewski: I have just one question to that topic. We all know that almost all street cars are not visible inside of it by any other competitor. So its easy to change the setup during the competition. Who controls that? Cause other competitors can not do that because they even can not take a look in other cars.
For example in 2005,european finals Austria,i know for shure a competitor in my class changed his coils to another impedance during the event. I did'nt protest against it,because i know at that time wich car was going to win the finals,and that car was mine But never less,this was really cheating,major infraction against the rules,the funny thing is now the same people protest against annything they can find because they wil come not even close to the winner in there categorie Something to think about no?? Judges should measure the impedance at the beginning of the contest while judging the car,and check it during the contest.
Rules only state that it has to be the same imp at the WF .
1st : there werent any 2 ohm coils availlable anymore . 2nd : we lost 0.7 db and a crackt cone , so we had to recone . 3th : it was OK'ed by the judges .
Sorry Stef, but i cannot really agree with you in these points:
1st: the rulebooks say you are only allowed to change to same impedance. It is your problem if you have no right coils with you
2nd: It is also not the problem of the rulebook if you break something and cannot fix it like the rulebook says
3rd: That is maybe the biggest problem at this time of DB-Drag
-------------------- Street A European Champion 2003 Street B European Champion 2004 World Record Holder 2003 Street A-154,4 DB World Record Holder 2004 Street B-155,2 DB 3xWinner Austrian Finals
2006 Street A 156,7dB certified Posts: 232 | From: Austria | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Soundteam Painer-Thomas:
quote:Originally posted by Team DD Patrick:
quote:Originally posted by steffert:
quote:Originally posted by Chmielewski: I have just one question to that topic. We all know that almost all street cars are not visible inside of it by any other competitor. So its easy to change the setup during the competition. Who controls that? Cause other competitors can not do that because they even can not take a look in other cars.
For example in 2005,european finals Austria,i know for shure a competitor in my class changed his coils to another impedance during the event. I did'nt protest against it,because i know at that time wich car was going to win the finals,and that car was mine But never less,this was really cheating,major infraction against the rules,the funny thing is now the same people protest against annything they can find because they wil come not even close to the winner in there categorie Something to think about no?? Judges should measure the impedance at the beginning of the contest while judging the car,and check it during the contest.
Rules only state that it has to be the same imp at the WF .
1st : there werent any 2 ohm coils availlable anymore . 2nd : we lost 0.7 db and a crackt cone , so we had to recone . 3th : it was OK'ed by the judges .
Sorry Stef, but i cannot really agree with you in these points:
1st: the rulebooks say you are only allowed to change to same impedance. It is your problem if you have no right coils with you
2nd: It is also not the problem of the rulebook if you break something and cannot fix it like the rulebook says
3rd: That is maybe the biggest problem at this time of DB-Drag
Hi Thomas you are quoting me
Rules state it only has to be identical , imp to , at the WF . And we had a reason , broken woofer , to recone , not that i like it sooo much
quote:Originally posted by HDBDRA: i think WF Rules apply.
I agree. Regionals is part of the World Finals, so only exact replacements imo.
But some competitors have not qualified for WF so should not be forced to adhere to the WF rules.
To not make a mockery of the rules, there has to be a decision made that allows competitors to follow rules made specifically for WF at all the WF stages of the competiton but not during the regional section.
If this doesnt happen then the rule book needs to be ripped up and burnt as it isnt being followed to the letter.
-------------------- Ben ----- www.EastCoastChoons.co.uk UK SS 1-2 NW Record Holder Team UK - Team ECC Posts: 3011 | From: Deepest Darkest Norfolk | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by HDBDRA: i think WF Rules apply.
I agree. Regionals is part of the World Finals, so only exact replacements imo.
But some competitors have not qualified for WF so should not be forced to adhere to the WF rules.
To not make a mockery of the rules, there has to be a decision made that allows competitors to follow rules made specifically for WF at all the WF stages of the competiton but not during the regional section.
If this doesnt happen then the rule book needs to be ripped up and burnt as it isnt being followed to the letter.
The only problem with the rule book is that people like you are always trying to exploit the gray areas in an effort to give themselves an unfair advantage! Seriously guys, you know the rules just as well as the rest of us so quit trying to slip through a loophole!
You all knew the real answer to this question before it was ever posted...IMHO you are just trying to justify your actions before you do it so that if you do get called out at finals you can play stupid and say you didn't know it was wrong!
Regionals, Nationals and Finals are all at the same place, same day using the same qualifying scores and the same judges...Seeing how it is virtually impossible to compete at nationals without having qualified at regionals and it is further impossible to compete at the finals without having qualified in the bracket of regionals seeing how the contestants will be determined from those brackets I would say it is fair to say that they are indeed one and the same event thus making world finals rules the rules to be followed for the whole event!
Spin your theories all you want but for the sake of the future of db drag I sincerely hope that the judges hang you out to dry if you try to slip through this loophole at any location of finals since it has certainly been gone over and so many veteran competitors (before me) have already stepped up and explained the "intent" of the rule to you! Shame on any judge that lets you cheat in this manner!
-------------------- "Bigfoot, a figment of someone's imagination, or a mythical creature that is only seen in Ohio" has spoken!
Only at WF must you use the same woofers. Other events it doesnt apply.
Some competitors at this event will be in WF and others wont.
Do we now have two sets of rules?
If the rules accomodated joint shows, which it doesnt, then there wouldnt be a problem.
All we need is an amendment or an addition to the rules but until this takes place it has to be run as I have stated or it isnt being run as the rule book states.
And just for your information Mike, I qualified for finals without having even competed this year and will not be attending finals.
Look back through many many threads on here and you will see how I try to force people to see just how bad the rules are by getting people to follow the rules to the absolute letter and not letting people use "intent" or "grey areas".
TBH, I prefered TP when you wernt on here, making assumptions about myself and others.
Shame on you for saying this judge would cheat when he is competing
-------------------- Ben ----- www.EastCoastChoons.co.uk UK SS 1-2 NW Record Holder Team UK - Team ECC Posts: 3011 | From: Deepest Darkest Norfolk | Registered: Aug 2002
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I am not making any assumptions! Point blank, show me where I am wrong...Can ANYONE compete for the world championwhip without having qualified in the regional part of the event? If they can't then you would have to look at it as one and the same event!
"At the conclusion of the Regional Championship, the winning scores of all European contestants in each class will be combined. The dBDRA will then eliminate the names of contestants who did not meet the eligibility requirements for a World Finals invitation. We will then select the 2 highest scoring competitors from this list for each class. "World Record" methodology will be used (the lower of your two highest winning scores).These two contestants will then compete against one another for the National Championship in that class. The same process will be repeated for North America"
So, IF you do well enough in the first part of the show and you meet the qualifications then and only then may you continue on to the national and world finals portions of the bracket! How is this confusing? It is world finals with extra titles being handed out!
I can't say that I applaud you if you don't agree with reading the rules for their "intent"! If you are looking at them from a soley legalistic point of view then you are missing the whole point of why we have them! The rules are made to keep things fair and even, new rules are added when people aren't following their "intent" so to say that the "intent" is a bad thing to follow is just plain silly! I guess in my book, that makes you just plain silly! But, don't be sad, silly people are people too just of the silly variety!
I will say that I am sorry that you were more happy when I wasn't around perhaps you will grow to like me over time Remember, only the syth deal in absolutes...be strong in the force padawan, don't fall to the dark side for its pull is strong!
-------------------- "Bigfoot, a figment of someone's imagination, or a mythical creature that is only seen in Ohio" has spoken!
quote:Originally posted by Wayne Harris: "At the conclusion of the Regional Championship, the winning scores of all European contestants in each class will be combined. The dBDRA will then eliminate the names of contestants who did not meet the eligibility requirements for a World Finals invitation. We will then select the 2 highest scoring competitors from this list for each class. "World Record" methodology will be used (the lower of your two highest winning scores).These two contestants will then compete against one another for the National Championship in that class. The same process will be repeated for North America"
The end of the part where competitors who dont qualify for the WFs can take place?
So if there are competitors that dont meet WF requirements competiting at this point, it cannot be classed as WF, correct?
After this point only people that have met WF criteria can compete, so this is now the "real" WF, correct?
You cant force people that dont meet WF criteria to adhere to WF rules!
End of, job done, no discussion.
Its like competing in Street and being allowed to use SuperStreet rules for your build. Its not on.
The rules state one thing and one thing only.
The problem we have here is that fact the current rule book was written 2+ seasons ago. The "WF" we are having this year has been tossed around and decided on in the past few months. Decisions are still being made now.
We have a rule which doesnt apply to the WFs we have. Yet we cant take away a rule which has so much precedent.
-------------------- Ben ----- www.EastCoastChoons.co.uk UK SS 1-2 NW Record Holder Team UK - Team ECC Posts: 3011 | From: Deepest Darkest Norfolk | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
I guess it depends on if you view the national round and the world round as seperate shows or the continuation of the brackets...as if it is the same show with 2 more rounds! I guess I can see where you are coming from but I really hope that if a ruling is needed here that the world finals rules would take precedence...seeing how finals is the more important part of the total event and the main reason the show is going on in the first place the rules of the world finals should be the ones being followed!
-------------------- "Bigfoot, a figment of someone's imagination, or a mythical creature that is only seen in Ohio" has spoken!
posted
Once again Mike, there are some competitors that havnt qualified for WFs so how can you force them to adhere to a set of rules that are defined for WFs only?
You cant.
-------------------- Ben ----- www.EastCoastChoons.co.uk UK SS 1-2 NW Record Holder Team UK - Team ECC Posts: 3011 | From: Deepest Darkest Norfolk | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Mr Bump: Once again Mike, there are some competitors that havnt qualified for WFs so how can you force them to adhere to a set of rules that are defined for WFs only?
You cant.
well traditionally speaking, this event is world finals! In my mind, I see the regional and national titles as an extension of the finals so to me they are under the rules of the more important part of the event that is taking place! Think of it this way, the event is world finals but wayne is allowing people who wish to attend the event that don't match the full criteria to take part on a lesser scale of the full version! Its kind of like using the "lite" version of a program, you get to make use of some of the features but the full version is reserved for those that pay the price to activate the rest of the features! From your point of view, one would have one of two possible outcomes...
1.) anyone who is competing with hopes to continue to nationals and finals would have to adhere to the full rules...
2.) those who are only competing at the regional event could take advantage of any rules that are specific to finals...
The problem I see with your view is that allowing it to be considered two seperate events would give an unfair advantage to those whom are NOT competing at the world level! The only fair way to approach this situation is to force all competitors to adhere to the rules set forth for world finals!
Picture this if you can...there are 8 people in a given class...the number 1 qualifier is trying for world finals and the number 8 qualifier is only a regional competitor...both competitors blow up their equipment in qualifying...the number 1 qualifier can't replace some of his equipment because he dont' have enough matching gear to replace it wish so he is running on 4 out of his 5 subs whereas qualifier 8 is only competing at regionals so he is allowed to swap out all of his gear to whatever he wants so he drops in more powerful amps and better subwoofers since he is allowed to do so...he goes on to beat the number 1 qualifier only because he didn't have to adhere to the rules!
sound far fetched? it really could happen under your interpretation of the rules! You have to look at the "intent" here! Wayne opened up finals to allow more people the chance to compete...the "regional championship" is a result of making world finals work at multiple locations...the intent of the rule certainly isn't to give an unfair advantage to those who didn't put forth the extra effort to be eligible for the world finals portion...that in mind, there is no choice but to force all competitors to adhere to the world finals rules to make a fair and level playing field at the world finals event!
If you care to know, I won't personally be affected by this one way or the other...I am simply voicing my opinion of right and wrong on the topic!
-------------------- "Bigfoot, a figment of someone's imagination, or a mythical creature that is only seen in Ohio" has spoken!
WF you know of has been scrapped and replaced with an equivalent of the French, German, Euro or any other Finals.
After these finals there is an additional two rounds. (Two rounds that are not even mentioned in any rule book) These rounds are only accessable by those with X amount of points.
Now in your theory in the 3 of the first 4 rounds you could be up against someone with X points or someone without X points. Competitor A and competitor B both qualify with 155.0 in Street A. Both competitors blow 1 sub or damage a coil. Comp A has 75 points, comp B has 74 points. In the first knockout they are up against each other, comp A with original subs as he has no recone available or no time to recone. Comp B has an original sub and a sub from Brand Y with the same coils. Comp B pulls a 154.9 and Comp A pulls a 154.1. The guy that has qualified for the WF has been knocked out by the guy that hasnt!
Now imagine that happening.
And before someone says make everyone adhere to WF rules, you cant, its not in the rules!
-------------------- Ben ----- www.EastCoastChoons.co.uk UK SS 1-2 NW Record Holder Team UK - Team ECC Posts: 3011 | From: Deepest Darkest Norfolk | Registered: Aug 2002
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I hate to say it, but I totally agre with Mike on this one.
I've seen rules from triple pointers used at single point events and no one complained.
If you blow up your gear at finals, and you don't have equal replacements, it's your own fault, and you're most likely done for the day.
Everyone that competes at these events needs to abide by the same rules, and considering that most people cometeing have to abide by the World Finals rules, that means everyone should abide by those same rules.
-------------------- Alejandro "Alex" Avila Sound Decision SPL Team - team captain http://www.sounddecisioninc.com Posts: 1464 | From: Montgomery, IL U.S.A | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Mr Bump: Mike, think of it this way.
WF you know of has been scrapped and replaced with an equivalent of the French, German, Euro or any other Finals.
After these finals there is an additional two rounds. (Two rounds that are not even mentioned in any rule book) These rounds are only accessable by those with X amount of points.
Now in your theory in the 3 of the first 4 rounds you could be up against someone with X points or someone without X points. Competitor A and competitor B both qualify with 155.0 in Street A. Both competitors blow 1 sub or damage a coil. Comp A has 75 points, comp B has 74 points. In the first knockout they are up against each other, comp A with original subs as he has no recone available or no time to recone. Comp B has an original sub and a sub from Brand Y with the same coils. Comp B pulls a 154.9 and Comp A pulls a 154.1. The guy that has qualified for the WF has been knocked out by the guy that hasnt!
Now imagine that happening.
And before someone says make everyone adhere to WF rules, you cant, its not in the rules!
Imagine the same competitors, and Comp A is allowed to change to different gear and gains 1 db. Now competitor C in a different part of the world was doing 155.7, making him the loudest in the world, but then gets beat for World Finals by competitor A who swapped for different gear to get a 156.
Figure that one out.
Point is everyone should abide by the same rules, if they don't like it, they don't have to compete.
-------------------- Alejandro "Alex" Avila Sound Decision SPL Team - team captain http://www.sounddecisioninc.com Posts: 1464 | From: Montgomery, IL U.S.A | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
The point is the rules state everyone abides by the rules that apply to them.
Those competitors outside the WF do not have to apply to WF rules.
You cannot argue that.
And with your twist on my situation, it wouldnt happen, if comp A got to the WF stages he would have to continue using the woofers he qualified with, not the ones he used as replacements in the regional section.
So would lose to Comp C anyway.
-------------------- Ben ----- www.EastCoastChoons.co.uk UK SS 1-2 NW Record Holder Team UK - Team ECC Posts: 3011 | From: Deepest Darkest Norfolk | Registered: Aug 2002
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Ok,what if comp D was at the same location as competitor A and comp d did a 155.8, making him loudest in the world, but then he gets beat in the regionals by comp A who swapped out for different gear. Now comp D does not get his chance at the World championship. Is that fair?
-------------------- Alejandro "Alex" Avila Sound Decision SPL Team - team captain http://www.sounddecisioninc.com Posts: 1464 | From: Montgomery, IL U.S.A | Registered: Jul 2000
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But he was louder than Comp A, assuming he had backed it up and would qualify ahead of Comp A. Loudest back-up applies.
-------------------- Ben ----- www.EastCoastChoons.co.uk UK SS 1-2 NW Record Holder Team UK - Team ECC Posts: 3011 | From: Deepest Darkest Norfolk | Registered: Aug 2002
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