posted
Wayne has pointed out this long standing guide line which has been forgotten about.
Member # 2
posted 12-21-2001 01:39 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for everyone's input on this topic. To fully understand the reason that the Commercial Availability clause was added to the rule book, you must look at the big picture...
1. Competitors want to use products that win. Competitors also want equal access to components that are being used in dB Drag Racing competition.
2. Retailers host dB Drag Racing events as a marketing tool. In other words, they host events in an effort to sell product. It doesn't do a retailer any good to provide a marketing platform for a product that he or she can't sell.
3. Manufacturer's support the sport of dB Drag Racing by sponsoring vehicles, becoming members of the dBDRA, exhibiting at shows, and manufacturing products for use in dB Drag Racing competition. Once again, it doesn't do a manufacturer any good to fund an organization that promotes a product that is manufacturered by someone who isn't pulling their own weight.
4. The dBDRA wants all of the objectives above to be fufilled. We want competitors to have fair access to the best products. We want retailers to sell lots of products so that they will have more events and the competitors will have more opportunities to compete. Increased sales benefits the manufacturers and they are then more inclined to participate in dB Drag Racing by sponsoring vehicles, developing new products, purchasing booths at events, and supporting the dBDRA.
The dBDRA will determine the legitimacy of any given product based on criteria that is currently being developed.
The final responsibility with regards to the use of commercially available components will rest with the competitor. The questions you should be asking yourself is; "Can I walk into an auto sound retailer and purchase this product or is it only available from one or two places? Is it in widespread use or have only a few been made? Is the product off-the-shelf or is it a custom made component?" These are just a few of the issues we will be using in the final determination as to wheter a product is commercially available or not.
The dBDRA does not intend on compiling a list of acceptable components. This would be an impossible task. My advice would be to use common sense and purchase products manufactured by legitimate companies and sold through normal auto sound retailers.
-------------------- "Keep it Loud and Make me Proud!"
Wayne Harris
Posts: 1743 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jun 2005
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that pretty much spells it out, but then says they wont do anything about it.
Posts: 1707 | From: Dickson,TN,USA | Registered: Apr 2000
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The over all SPL market is very small and there are only so many cars competing with SPL application specific products (meaning the high power, really expensive, limited sales products used by competitors and rarely used by consumers). We make these products to sell (even though there is very low margins) not to get rich but rather to win events, support the growth of car audio, get talked about, make the press and help grow our name brand recognition. This helps us sell our less expensive higher volume products. This is why we have motor sports. (GM doesn't make money selling Nascar parts).
We (not just us) support car audio events via trophy sponsorships, team sponsorships, booth rentals from SBN, dB Drag, IASCA, USACi, MECA, IDBL...Finals, car audio magazine adds featuring our teams and caraudio events and not to mention the tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars developing high power products you compete with. There are many other support mechanisms to help grow our sport as well.
As you all know, every year there are fewer companies supporting you competitors and our sport and there are many reasons. We all know of lots of people that have taken advantage of sponsorships, stretched the rules and have jumped through every loop hole they could and when one wasn't available, they create one by offering a distorted view of the rules.
"Commercially Available" is or was one of the big (and last) advantages for us supporting manufacturers to rely on to ensure competitors would buy the commercially available products we produced for competition. When competitors start buying products direct from the over seas vendors and bypassing our effort to support the sport, we loose the majority of the little margins me make by selling SPL products.
I have read a hundred posts from competitors trying to justify this practice and it's very discouraging. These factories contribute nothing, they support nothing, they offer no warranty for any thing and the reality is that even in Asia, these rogue companies are known by other factories as whores.
At one time these factories were succesfull selling OEM/ODM but at some point and for many reasons have lost there larger supporting customers and in the end, turn to whoring out there products to any one that will buy 2 or more of them. The majority of these factories lost there contracts with the larger cutomers because they have poor quality or they take the customers trade secrets and pass them on to other customers that spend nothing developing new technologies. Now, those of you non-legitimate companies that buy from them and pretend to be a company by putting the amp gift in the retail store window in order to claim "commercially available" need to think about your actions and how it affects the long term success of our sport, hobby and careers. Shame on you.
These companies will not last forever and many of the legitimate Asian manufacturers are doing everyhting to get them closed down once and for all. I applaud them and support them by giving them legitimate business.
I think Waynes explanation above is very good and there will be more specific rules to follow fort he following season.
Please support those that are supporting all of you. ("all" being very important)
This is just an observation from just one guy who will be going to his 27th CES in January.
Look forward to seeing you at Finals.
Posts: 1743 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jun 2005
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If you are right I just may find myself in a position to run a team again as well! I just see no reason to promote all year long and then have people use my product with a different logo at world finals...In case anyone hasn't noticed, I haven't put forth a team for the last 2 seasons and this year there are only two competitors even running my product at the world finals (well, two that admit to it, lol). I have put zero effort into building or promoting a team as it just doesn't seem worth it...as long as there is no reason to have brand loyalty and limited production units are allowed to compete there is just no money or incentive in it for me and losing money for nothing just don't make good business sence to me
-------------------- Now, LEAVE ME ALONE... "Bigfoot, a figment of someone's imagination, or a mythical creature that is only seen in Ohio" has spoken!
my real email addy is shocker_mike@yahoo.com but wayne don't allow yahoo accounts so my account is working off of a dead email! Posts: 1758 | From: sherwood | Registered: Jul 1999
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Yes, everyone seems to forget that our sport is here to promote the industry, not to promote ourselves. This goes for running bespoke Lithion Ion batts that the consumer wont care for, Unknown amp brands that the consumer wont car for and rubbish little cars (ie Pandas) that both show promotors and consumers just cant bear the sight of....
-------------------- - Firestarter - 9 times UK Champion. European Bassrace Champion 2007. IdbL Stock Pro 2 World Record Holder 2006 www.TheFirestarter.net
Posts: 831 | From: England | Registered: May 2000
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if I have to pay for my own stuff I don't care what the industry want to see
I'm not going to pay much money because the industry want's to see their products at shows
and I only have competed for myself and not for anyone else
-------------------- POWER IS NOTHING WITHOUT CONTROL michel van wijk superstreet 1-2 no-wall 159.3 @ 66hz certified Posts: 736 | From: holland | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by RFKANGOO: if I have to pay for my own stuff I don't care what the industry want to see
I'm not going to pay much money because the industry want's to see their products at shows
and I only have competed for myself and not for anyone else
With out the industry, you wouldn't be competing!
This is a "one on one" sport but you sound selfish. Do you pay retail prices for your products? Does any manufacturer give you any kind of discount?
A big part of the industry (aside from the manufacturers) are the retail stores that host the shows and you compete at. They care about the industry!
These big power subs, batteries and amps you use are not designed to sell just to the average consumer. They are designed by the industry for you to compete with.
You should are about the industry because the industry cares about you and you are participating in our industry which is car audio competitions.
Cactus Sounds is also "the industry". I'm sure Christoph cares and wants to see his products at shows and be seen by others.
My guess is he isn't in this business to get rich selling to competitors. He is a company interested in growing and becoming profitable and financially secure. The visibility of his products is crucial to his commercial success and future growth at the retail level where the volume and margins are.
Posts: 1743 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jun 2005
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If you want to be the number one company in competition... YOU LOSE MONEY.
And then you hope to god that people see your "other" stuff that makes money.
Many a company, has dominated SPL over the past 17 years that I have been involved into this.... they last a few years and then they are gone from SPL.
The industry needs to go back to all small town shows at retailers... with 1 or 2 BIG Events.
Personally Speaking... Is there such a speaker that is truly commercially available that is in the World Champion vehicles??? The exact carbon copy? I have recently seen speakers that don't exist as far as I or anyone else knew.... But guess what, they were at Nopi....
I have competitors from all walks of life and brand names they support....call me wanting custom voice coils, former materials,former diameters, former thicknesses, cone weights, etc.... wanting to compare my pricing vs. Brand X's pricing on building 1 off parts... Including well respected champions and members of this organization that other people look at and say..."Man, how is he getting that loud?"....
Take a guess how....
The only thing I fluxuate on is the dust cap depending on what I have in stock, the number of spiders, and the cone if I run out of the normal cones....
Man, it would make you sick to see some of the stuff I had seen at Nopi Nationals.
1 particular product really amazed me.... Because the company sneaking it in, is VERY well respected for being honest and respectible.
Competitors have become to involved in the going-ons of the manufacturing world.
This is where the big problem is.
Competitors can call up these coil, cone, and spider manufacturers and have their own parts made....
ONE CALL TO CALIFORNIA TO THE ONE GUY THAT EVERYONE USES, and you have your self 50 speakers with your name on them and a new company has emerged with cloned product that just floods the industry with un-originality.
This is bad.
No, this is not what I did. I started from scratch and designed my own stuff... had to order 500-1000 of each individual sku number, and spent my life savings. My venture is going on 3 years.... and I am still a nobody new company.
There should be a code of ethics between all manufacturers to bar competitors from knowing so much about the inner workings of their companies, etc....
Basically, this hobby is dominated by industry affiliates, and people involved in the SPL parts industry. If it was the true consumers competing, things would be much better.
The competitors are too involved with the research and tooling side to be fair.
Every competitor I personally know (even the ones on my team), knows everyone behind the scenes, where the parts come from, who owns what manufacturing house, etc... and they only pay manufacturing cost for their product....
3 of my guys this year would be sitting at home if I did not provide them with free parts. And all 3 will have an excellent shot at winning their class.
quote:Originally posted by Team Maxxsonics - John:
quote:Originally posted by RFKANGOO: if I have to pay for my own stuff I don't care what the industry want to see
I'm not going to pay much money because the industry want's to see their products at shows
and I only have competed for myself and not for anyone else
With out the industry, you wouldn't be competing!
This is a "one on one" sport but you sound selfish. Do you pay retail prices for your products? Does any manufacturer give you any kind of discount?
I hope not to be to very personal. But nobody who does dbdrag should hinging on sponsors. Unfortunately I´ve seen to much "arse lickers" in the dbdrag scene in germany. That are people who knows whats going on but shuts up because they still wanna get good discounts from a distributor etc. Otherwise its not possible for them to be still competitive.
In my opinion its just sad that this happens. Its just because that sport got as much expensive as nobody can really affort it. In the most cases distributors/dealers are doing a good job - but not at all.
In the past i did decisions i would have never done if i knew things which those "arse lickers" are hidding. This includes information about products and also information about persons.
If people are sponsored they also never talk about things may maaring image of distributor or product. Maybe thats good cause no big emotions happens. But it also makes possible for people do to **** a VERY long time. But people still shutting up cause they know exactly they won´t be able doing dbdrag anymore without sponsorship.
-------------------- Posts: 1156 | From: Africa | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by J.DEMUTH: Basically, this hobby is dominated by industry affiliates, and people involved in the SPL parts industry. If it was the true consumers competing, things would be much better.
The competitors are too involved with the research and tooling side to be fair.
Every competitor I personally know (even the ones on my team), knows everyone behind the scenes, where the parts come from, who owns what manufacturing house, etc... and they only pay manufacturing cost for their product.....
There is much truth But you should know. If the rules won´t be changed its almost not possible for a normal person to be competitive in dbdrag. Nobody has the money for being competitive in big classes. Now also small classes got fuc*king expensive...... so the rules must be changed first :-) then u will have a much fair and better competition. Especially things happened concerned about multiple cell batteries. There is never an intention to sell them at normal consumer market. Nobody is willing to pay up to 1000 dollars/euros for one battery. For me all multiple cell batteries beginning with that one from dd are cheater batteries and should never be allowed cause they are not produced for the normal market. So we also need a new definition who a normal consumer has to be and allow ONLY products which are intended to be sold at normal consumer market. I hope u understand everything i´ve told here
-------------------- Posts: 1156 | From: Africa | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Team Maxxsonics - John:
quote:Originally posted by RFKANGOO: if I have to pay for my own stuff I don't care what the industry want to see
I'm not going to pay much money because the industry want's to see their products at shows
and I only have competed for myself and not for anyone else
With out the industry, you wouldn't be competing!
This is a "one on one" sport but you sound selfish. Do you pay retail prices for your products? Does any manufacturer give you any kind of discount?
I wish I could affort retail prices
the stuff I used for dbdrag I bought second hand from other competitors
I always played with the same brand but never see anything back from them not even 1 speakerwire
only sometimes I get discount on cables and connectors but that isn't much
this is also a reason that I can't and won't compete in dbdrag at a high level (for me) I just don't want to spend all my money to be in top ten
-------------------- POWER IS NOTHING WITHOUT CONTROL michel van wijk superstreet 1-2 no-wall 159.3 @ 66hz certified Posts: 736 | From: holland | Registered: Dec 2004
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If you guys really want to fix the problems plaguing db drag you have to dive a little deeper though...
I think we need to quit trying to police the things we can't police and make a change that will make all those things come around on their own! I have a proposal that could make a major shift of balance for the TRUE daily driver beginners! but it would require ALOT of support from manufacturers to make it happen...
Make every single run a 5 minute deathmatch, qualifying, quarter finals, semifinals and final runs all deathmatch! At first that might sound brutal but there is one more catch to it...NO EQUIPMENT MAY BE REPLACED ONCE A SHOW BEGINS!
you ask, what does that solve, let me explain...
1.) EVERYONE will be forced to only use as much power as their sub can take true rms as if they blow a sub or amp they can't replace it...
2.) 40 billion dollar eleventy billion watt amplifiers will no longer be needed to be competitive...
3.) this will actually help manufacturers push their limits on real subs and amps that consumers might actually buy and use driving down the street!
now, three other thoughts that would secure this and make it work...
first, the largest STANDARD voice coil being used currently is 4", I would suggest implementing a max coil diameter of 4" to keep things realistic
second, limit the number of cells in each battery to 6 distinct cells!
third, I would suggest implementing a "fair and reasonable" max MSRP limit on batteries, subwoofers and amplifiers to keep the playing field just a little more level...
I honestly and wholeheartedly believe that if these small changes were implemented (which termlab is already set up for) that the playing field would level off and spl specific gear would take a major turn towards marketable gear thus allowing joe consumer to see his potential and have the desire to step up to the plate and give it a whirl! It would absolutely draw more spectators as it would be way more fun to watch and then manufacturers could actually use their teams success to truely market product...lets face it, some guy pushing 40,000 watts into one sub doing 180 in a tin can for a 1.5 second burp isn't gonna sell product for anyone! (not aimed at anyone so don't turn it into that) Point blank, after seeing that my team tore up finals a few years back having done absolutely NOTHING for me financially I can't say it did me any good! 42 world finals contestants running my product at finals back when you had to work for an invite didn't help me sell squat! Aproaching new dealers I always heard the same damn things...can your sub handle that much power all day? can my customers get that loud driving down the street with your product? did the sub sound good in the enclosure that did that number? does the sub have waranty if I give it that much power? will my amps break if I run them at the impedance that the winning guys used? And the list of questions go on and on and you find yourself saying, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no and then they say, yeah, thats what I thought, no thanx! Consumers have the same type of attitude except most of them will have just a slightly different aproach...you mean I have to push 40,000 watts to my sub to get that loud? I can't afford that much power...will my subs break with that much power? will waranty cover that? and so on and so forth! or my favorite one of all...going to local shows and watching the locals that think they want to compete...they start talking to the street a guys that are winning that day, I've seen this a million times, you mean your 2x10"s, 2xamplifiers, battery, 16 runs of 1 guage, high output alternator and massive amounts of dynamat cost you 6k...and you got a hookup to get that price? you mean it will cost me 10k retail without a hookup? HOW IN THE **** CAN I EVER AFORD TO COMPETE?
make it real or watch it die guys...its just that simple!
-------------------- Now, LEAVE ME ALONE... "Bigfoot, a figment of someone's imagination, or a mythical creature that is only seen in Ohio" has spoken!
my real email addy is shocker_mike@yahoo.com but wayne don't allow yahoo accounts so my account is working off of a dead email! Posts: 1758 | From: sherwood | Registered: Jul 1999
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The final responsibility with regards to the use of commercially available components will rest with the competitor. The questions you should be asking yourself is; "Can I walk into an auto sound retailer and purchase this product or is it only available from one or two places? Is it in widespread use or have only a few been made? Is the product off-the-shelf or is it a custom made component?" These are just a few of the issues we will be using in the final determination as to wheter a product is commercially available or not.
that right there applies to half the products used in competition.
in no particular order: 1) stetsom amps cant be purchased anywhere in the states other than through dante and 1-2 dealers
2) the large batteries that are only availibe direct through xstatik or through emailing dc sound lab
3) the crankenstein battery isnt availible here in the states, neither is the cactus battery but through 1-2 ppl here locally
that defination is a working one from an industry perspective, but this isnt ever gonna be enforced so why argue about it?
-------------------- Posts: 728 | From: Princeton West Virginia | Registered: Dec 2004
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@lilmaniac2: Yes, absolutly correct what u have told :-). Its simply not sufficient to have a product thru a few dealers available to make it commercial available.
-------------------- Posts: 1156 | From: Africa | Registered: Oct 2004
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I can assure you there will be some rule changes or at very least, some more complete and detailed explanation of the rules that will come from all of this but we still need to get through this year first.
All of this talk about the commercially available, vehicle modifications, judging discrepancies and genaral rules violations are doing two things. 1. Making those violators aware that a lot of people are tired of the lack of enforcement in these areas and at Finals, they may want to be prepared to ensure all is in proper order. 2. This is laying the ground rules for new considerations for the 2008 season. No one can say "no one told me I couldn't cheat", or "I did it last year so it must be ok this year", "Every one else is doing it so I can do it" and my favorite, the twisting of the obvious rules to find some tiny loop hole to skwerm through.
A lot of discrepencies will be pointed out this year and hopefully the loop holes will be tightened up for next year.
I'm sure most of you are just as tired of it as I am.
Posts: 1743 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jun 2005
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