posted
John, I totally feel your pain and I really did fight this battle a few years ago, I have to tell you from real experiance, don't take this too far or you will get bitten in the arse!
On the flip side, Steve, I do totally understand your side, it is pretty much impossible for db drag to police every single competitor and verify that what they are using is actually legit and available!
The real problem here is that even legit subs that really are sold and available go through changes! As an example, the shocker sig goes through 1-2 revisions a year and has been changed drastically since it was first introduced 7 years ago...granted the motor is virtually unchanged, the soft parts are so different now than the original unit that they are nothing alike! I just had a 2001 sig brought in for a recone a few days ago that still had the original 01 parts...it looked nothing like a 2007 when it came in but all recones recieve the latest updates when they come in for repairs! I think dd does similar with their a, b, c, d versions and so on but don't quote me there! I would assume any long lived spl driver has been through many revisions...how can db drag or anyone else really pin down which is really from the original company and which ones are custom? make sence?
Believe me, I watched many guys on my competition team get screwed over the years by people using equipment that wasn't really available or modded equipment with mods that weren't OEM and thus not really commercially available...that is one of the things that drove me away from leading a massive team in db drag...believe it or not, at our peak our team took home 42 trophies from world finals in a single year...and look what that did, OR DIDN'T DO for me!
You really just have to settle for knowing that your guys are playing it by the book and having a good time! You have to take your losses (even the ones that cheated to win) with a grin and do it only for the love and fun of the sport...if that isn't enough its time to move on cause a totally 100% level playing field just isn't ever gonna happen...and besides, with the power people are dumping in their burps now you can't even really use your successes to sell product...think about it, just as soon as joe consumer finds out your team is pushing several times the rms ratings of power into your subs they are no longer even interested in your accomplishments...take it from me, I know this first hand!
-------------------- Now, LEAVE ME ALONE... "Bigfoot, a figment of someone's imagination, or a mythical creature that is only seen in Ohio" has spoken!
my real email addy is shocker_mike@yahoo.com but wayne don't allow yahoo accounts so my account is working off of a dead email! Posts: 1758 | From: sherwood | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
Look back through the past 3 or 4 years rules discussion sections.
You will see posts by myself saying the rules need looking at.
They cover very little but on some unimportant issue go way too deep.
-------------------- Ben ----- www.EastCoastChoons.co.uk UK SS 1-2 NW Record Holder Team UK - Team ECC - Team RE - Team DD Posts: 2924 | From: Deepest Darkest Norfolk | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Team PSI - David: I think building a special piece of equipment from scratch and repairing a commercially available piece of equipment with similar parts are two different things.
quote:Originally posted by Team PSI - David: I think building a special piece of equipment from scratch and repairing a commercially available piece of equipment with similar parts are two different things.
Amen.
the problem with this attitude is that allowing people to recone a sub to be something it wasn't intended to be truely does make it something that isn't commercially available! any tom, **** and harry can call around and find parts and get their hands on samples...allowing this sort of thing to go on opens up the avenue that allows a manufacturer who doesn't spend the money on r&d to step up, get their people to buy another brand and then put their logos on it...as an example, I for one quit pushing the envelope on spl drivers because I got sick of my products being used in the lanes with other logos and potentially beating my guys! Why should I spend money on r&d and let someone else take my glory? see the problem here?
Another thing, sponcering people is great sure, but making a product and putting a pricetag on it 3-4x its value to make it impossible for anyone not being partially sponcered or on the team to be able to afford is just as bad in my mind! Granted there is no way to police this but we all know a couple amplifier manufacturers that do this! 3-5k priced amplifiers in street classes, yeah, that is really promoting a healthy competition industry isn't it?
-------------------- Now, LEAVE ME ALONE... "Bigfoot, a figment of someone's imagination, or a mythical creature that is only seen in Ohio" has spoken!
my real email addy is shocker_mike@yahoo.com but wayne don't allow yahoo accounts so my account is working off of a dead email! Posts: 1758 | From: sherwood | Registered: Jul 1999
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Commercially availible - Being able to buy it somewhere. Nuway sells spiders and cones everyday, Precision/po yung sell coils every day. Isnt that commercially availible?
-------------------- Posts: 728 | From: Princeton West Virginia | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by lilmaniac2: Commercially availible - Being able to buy it somewhere. Nuway sells spiders and cones everyday, Precision/po yung sell coils every day. Isnt that commercially availible?
The read between the grey lines answer is simple yet unenforcable! NO, that is not commercially available. Companies like nuway and precision do not "intend" to sell to individuals! And even if they did, although I know for a fact they don't, commercially available products are products that anybody can go to a retail outlet and purchase! The "intent" of the rule in db drag is to allow products that are made for the purpose of daily driving use and are made by companies actually trying to promote and sell the product on a large scale for said use to qualify. Products that are made intentionally unavailable or for team specific use only do not meet the "intent" of the rules but so many companies these days don't even care that the rule has been made a complete joke! I really feel for wayne on this because the companies that "claim" to support db drag and then turn around and step into this grey area as far as they can are truely ruining what was once an awesome hobby!
I remember a few years back, I myself had to prove that specific quantities of my product were available and that it was able to be purchased through a req number of retail locations! At the time people were fearful that shocker products wouldn't be allowed to be at finals because of these rules yet we met all of the guidelines! I'm not sure if those guidelines have been actually removed or if they are just too hard to enforce. I also remember a time when if you weren't using OEM replacement parts, ie recones for your subs and internals for amplifiers you could and DID get dq'd at finals! IMHO you should be using the same parts to recone your subs and rebuild your amps as the original manufacturer...OEM revisions are one thing, but just buying a sub and slapping your own soft parts on it should be considered cheating just as having a second party company supply soft parts for another subwoofer or internals for another amplifier should be considered cheating...
Plain and simple, if you are allowed to go out and purchase a motor, your own soft parts and build a sub to compete then why bother with using any brand name of product? Everyone should just go out and buy the strongest motor and sit in front of their meters and test different soft parts all day till they get the record in their classes!
Hell, if that is the attitude everyone wants to take, anyone want to buy some sig motors that they can supply their own soft parts for? I'm in the wrong business, I think I am gonna start offering DIY motors so everyone can have their own brand without having to deal with all that messy brand loyalty stuff! So who wants to be the first on the new band wagon???
-------------------- Now, LEAVE ME ALONE... "Bigfoot, a figment of someone's imagination, or a mythical creature that is only seen in Ohio" has spoken!
my real email addy is shocker_mike@yahoo.com but wayne don't allow yahoo accounts so my account is working off of a dead email! Posts: 1758 | From: sherwood | Registered: Jul 1999
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that would mean everybody with TRF motors can trow them away because you can't recone them anymore ????
-------------------- POWER IS NOTHING WITHOUT CONTROL michel van wijk superstreet 1-2 no-wall 159.3 @ 66hz certified Posts: 709 | From: holland | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by RFKANGOO: that would mean everybody with TRF motors can trow them away because you can't recone them anymore ????
well, NOBODY can deny that was the most shady subwoofer release in the history of db drag. But, since it was accepted as legal by the judges the TRF motor so long as it is reconed with ORIGINAL ROCKFORD PARTS should be legal, however, in my opinion, using any other parts should be considered cheating!
-------------------- Now, LEAVE ME ALONE... "Bigfoot, a figment of someone's imagination, or a mythical creature that is only seen in Ohio" has spoken!
my real email addy is shocker_mike@yahoo.com but wayne don't allow yahoo accounts so my account is working off of a dead email! Posts: 1758 | From: sherwood | Registered: Jul 1999
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quote:Originally posted by lilmaniac2: Commercially availible - Being able to buy it somewhere. Nuway sells spiders and cones everyday, Precision/po yung sell coils every day. Isnt that commercially availible?
The read between the grey lines answer is simple yet unenforcable! NO, that is not commercially available. Companies like nuway and precision do not "intend" to sell to individuals! And even if they did, although I know for a fact they don't, commercially available products are products that anybody can go to a retail outlet and purchase! The "intent" of the rule in db drag is to allow products that are made for the purpose of daily driving use and are made by companies actually trying to promote and sell the product on a large scale for said use to qualify. Products that are made intentionally unavailable or for team specific use only do not meet the "intent" of the rules but so many companies these days don't even care that the rule has been made a complete joke! I really feel for wayne on this because the companies that "claim" to support db drag and then turn around and step into this grey area as far as they can are truely ruining what was once an awesome hobby!
I remember a few years back, I myself had to prove that specific quantities of my product were available and that it was able to be purchased through a req number of retail locations! At the time people were fearful that shocker products wouldn't be allowed to be at finals because of these rules yet we met all of the guidelines! I'm not sure if those guidelines have been actually removed or if they are just too hard to enforce. I also remember a time when if you weren't using OEM replacement parts, ie recones for your subs and internals for amplifiers you could and DID get dq'd at finals! IMHO you should be using the same parts to recone your subs and rebuild your amps as the original manufacturer...OEM revisions are one thing, but just buying a sub and slapping your own soft parts on it should be considered cheating just as having a second party company supply soft parts for another subwoofer or internals for another amplifier should be considered cheating...
Plain and simple, if you are allowed to go out and purchase a motor, your own soft parts and build a sub to compete then why bother with using any brand name of product? Everyone should just go out and buy the strongest motor and sit in front of their meters and test different soft parts all day till they get the record in their classes!
Hell, if that is the attitude everyone wants to take, anyone want to buy some sig motors that they can supply their own soft parts for? I'm in the wrong business, I think I am gonna start offering DIY motors so everyone can have their own brand without having to deal with all that messy brand loyalty stuff! So who wants to be the first on the new band wagon???
The commercially available rule is hard to enforce and shouldn't be a rule IMO.
There are many subwoofers out there. I as a judge can't know exactly how each and every one is built ESPECIALLY if its sitting inside a box. On the same note, if I did know how all were built, what if a competitor in the USA got a sub that was purchased in Europe and had never been seen here before?
You said,
quote:"Everyone should just go out and buy the strongest motor and sit in front of their meters and test different soft parts all day till they get the record in their classes!"
Well, whats wrong with that? This whole sport is about R&D. Product support would only be benificial if every company represented by product was a sponsor and supporter of this hobby. This would be like saying " Rockford is sponsoring this event and only Rockford product is allowed."
I say, if you can purchase the parts and build a louder subwoofer than someone else or company 1. congrats to you & 2. a company should hire you for R&D
Also, lets say I purchase a sub from Best Buy. ( ok ha ha ... lets assume they sold an SPL sub ). If I was to resin the cone, would that be legal? What if I glued bambo strips to the back side of the cone to give the cone more strength? Is that illegal? There are lots of small, cheap things you can do to a sub to change it from how it came in the box. Changing dust cap, changing cone or spiders is just some of them.
I say, why have a rule that can't be enforced. What would be the negative consequence of getting rid of the rule?
-------------------- See you in the lanes,
dBSteve Get Loud Productions LLC Posts: 8326 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Well, its that 1/1000 chance that it will get enforced that keeps the honest people from taking advantage of it! But you are right, I agree, we would be better off without the rule than we are right now where it isn't able to be enforced!
I guess, to me, the downfall of not even trying to police this is that it opens the door for any company or individual to hand build just a couple of units that nobody else can get and bamo, unbeatable! I know that if I could just do one offs I could make a special sub for everyone and make life a living hell for other people I guess then it could be a profitable venture for me, so I give the idea a
-------------------- Now, LEAVE ME ALONE... "Bigfoot, a figment of someone's imagination, or a mythical creature that is only seen in Ohio" has spoken!
my real email addy is shocker_mike@yahoo.com but wayne don't allow yahoo accounts so my account is working off of a dead email! Posts: 1758 | From: sherwood | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
One way to look at it is car stereo competitions has had an impact on the aftermarket world. People with their one offs has caused manufactures to step up or rethink some designs. Most competitors are basic R&D for some manufactures. Several competitors get the first runs of product to "test" in real world circumstances IE stereo comps.
Now, I'm not saying I support or not support the idea of commercially available products.
I guess one downfall would be the servo motors or Richard Clark builds ( even though all those parts are commercially available )
We all know that the current rule can be manipulated. Websites, print material, invoices, etc can all be changed or altered to show availabiity.
This also applies to the cut off date. What is its purpose? If someone can build a vehicle and equipment that is louder than someone else ..... isn't that the whole point?
Drag Racing used to be about combustable engines. Then someone decided to put a jet engine on a car now we have the jet fuel class.
Maybe we need a consumer class and a non-consumer class.
Consumer - X amount of units or product must be sold Consumer Pro - limit amounts sold or one off or product can be used
Unless we limit Street and Street Max to production equipment.
-------------------- Ben ----- www.EastCoastChoons.co.uk UK SS 1-2 NW Record Holder Team UK - Team ECC - Team RE - Team DD Posts: 2924 | From: Deepest Darkest Norfolk | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by dBSteve: One way to look at it is car stereo competitions has had an impact on the aftermarket world. People with their one offs has caused manufactures to step up or rethink some designs. Most competitors are basic R&D for some manufactures. Several competitors get the first runs of product to "test" in real world circumstances IE stereo comps.
(John): This is true and we do this to build products that we hope to be able to sell (key word-sell)even though this is a generally small market because most often a competiton product is not sold in any kind of consumer volume. Being able to sell these products is key here.
Now, I'm not saying I support or not support the idea of commercially available products.
I guess one downfall would be the servo motors or Richard Clark builds ( even though all those parts are commercially available )
(John): actually, according to the rules, all parts are commercially available. This sis the problem and argument. Whole parts should be commercially available and not individualparts that make it up. It is a subwoofer thatis to be commercially available... not sub parts.
We all know that the current rule can be manipulated. Websites, print material, invoices, etc can all be changed or altered to show availabiity.
This also applies to the cut off date. What is its purpose? If someone can build a vehicle and equipment that is louder than someone else ..... isn't that the whole point?
(John):The purpose is to prevent companies from delivering products to their teams 2 weeks before Finals and no one else has a chance to purchase and run these amps. everyone should have an equal oppertunity to run the product to level the playing field.
Drag Racing used to be about combustable engines. Then someone decided to put a jet engine on a car now we have the jet fuel class.
(John): True but all cars have there own classes and compete against one another. Each class has build rules. That's why the differance between 1st and 8th may be a couple thousands of a second... not 3 dB.
Maybe we need a consumer class and a non-consumer class.
Consumer - X amount of units or product must be sold (John): Can never be proved and manufacturers will not give up this info. Consumer Pro - limit amounts sold or one off or product can be used
(John): Same problem.
Posts: 1650 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 12-21-2001 01:39 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for everyone's input on this topic. To fully understand the reason that the Commercial Availability clause was added to the rule book, you must look at the big picture...
1. Competitors want to use products that win. Competitors also want equal access to components that are being used in dB Drag Racing competition.
2. Retailers host dB Drag Racing events as a marketing tool. In other words, they host events in an effort to sell product. It doesn't do a retailer any good to provide a marketing platform for a product that he or she can't sell.
3. Manufacturer's support the sport of dB Drag Racing by sponsoring vehicles, becoming members of the dBDRA, exhibiting at shows, and manufacturing products for use in dB Drag Racing competition. Once again, it doesn't do a manufacturer any good to fund an organization that promotes a product that is manufacturered by someone who isn't pulling their own weight.
4. The dBDRA wants all of the objectives above to be fufilled. We want competitors to have fair access to the best products. We want retailers to sell lots of products so that they will have more events and the competitors will have more opportunities to compete. Increased sales benefits the manufacturers and they are then more inclined to participate in dB Drag Racing by sponsoring vehicles, developing new products, purchasing booths at events, and supporting the dBDRA.
The dBDRA will determine the legitimacy of any given product based on criteria that is currently being developed.
The final responsibility with regards to the use of commercially available components will rest with the competitor. The questions you should be asking yourself is; "Can I walk into an auto sound retailer and purchase this product or is it only available from one or two places? Is it in widespread use or have only a few been made? Is the product off-the-shelf or is it a custom made component?" These are just a few of the issues we will be using in the final determination as to wheter a product is commercially available or not.
The dBDRA does not intend on compiling a list of acceptable components. This would be an impossible task. My advice would be to use common sense and purchase products manufactured by legitimate companies and sold through normal auto sound retailers.
-------------------- "Keep it Loud and Make me Proud!"
Wayne Harris
Posts: 1650 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Too bad that was posted 6 years ago, back when MOST people believed in following the rules and not exploiting the grey areas! It was alot easier to police back then, if ONE guy showed up with something off the wall different everyone would rat him out and that was that (and yes, that used to happen) but things are alot different now. Believe me, I'd love to see some brand loyalty, but honestly, unless that rule is revised at least a little we really are better off without it! I stand firm on my opinion that allowing people to recone their subs with anything other than OEM replacement parts should be considered cheating...that right there is the MOST COMMON exploit of the rules. If you pick and chose your own soft parts you are NOT running a commercially available product PERIOD! Also, Wayne used to have certain reqiurements to get your product listed on the product selection page! I remember what a big thrill it was to me to get my product listed, it was an acomplishment...In my opinion, if your product isn't listed there, it shouldn't be allowed! This would keep 1 off products and limited production lines from being used at finals...there are even plain old everyday reconers putting their own logos on subs when they recone them now and offering special custom tailored recones...that is just another example of the problem, those reconers that have no actual brand of their own shouldn't even be allowed to sell their recones and call it a new product usable in db drag -- if those simple things can't be fixed then my vote would be to get rid of the rule completely!
But I will say, if the rule gets removed completely, I will be selling motors with baskets attached. Talk about a hay day for those wanting to win, monster motors for sale, just add your own flavor of soft parts!
(I was just reading through, looks like this thread shrunk a bit)
-------------------- Now, LEAVE ME ALONE... "Bigfoot, a figment of someone's imagination, or a mythical creature that is only seen in Ohio" has spoken!
my real email addy is shocker_mike@yahoo.com but wayne don't allow yahoo accounts so my account is working off of a dead email! Posts: 1758 | From: sherwood | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
Mike i still have a pic from Sbn when someones TRF dustcap blew off and yours was under it lol that was priceless.
-------------------- Team American Bass Canada The Loudest SS1-2 The Loudest SS3-4 The Loudest Superstreet vechicle in Canada Period!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Posts: 518 | From: can | Registered: Aug 2001
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