posted
The dBDRA defines a Trunk Vehicle that has a "permanent" or OEM parcel shelf ( non consumer removable aka normal operation )that divides the storage area from the passenger compartment. A 'trunk' vehicle may incorporate rear seats that are able to be folded down or permanent. Typically, but not in all occasions, these vehicles have a solid or metal door that would open in the rear to give you access to the cargo area. In this situation, the "Wall Test" is not required when determining the classification of a vehicle.
The dBDRA defines a Hatch Vehicle that has a cargo area that is open to the passenger compartment or has a 'consumer removable' panel which would allow access to this area. These vehicles may or may not include a rear seat that folds or is permanent ( non folding ). Typically, but not in all cases, the 'hatch' or door opening on the rear of the vehicle incorporates transparent glass which raises with the vehicle when opened. Hatchback vehicles are subject to the 'Wall Test' when determining the classification of the vehicle.
posted
Wow a real ruling! Can I get a little clearification though. "OEM parcel shelf" Would that be the shelf were the rear window/passenger compartment area meets the trunk area? Typically but not always where the rear speakers are mounted.
BTW The car I had pictured doesn't have one but I am happy to have official way of telling the difference.
So the final check would be if it has a permanent parcel shelf it is a trunk, and if it has a hatch with or without glass that opens into the passenger compartment then it's a hatchback, correct?
quote:Originally posted by H-O-Alts-Rick: Can I get a little clearification though. "OEM parcel shelf" Would that be the shelf were the rear window/passenger compartment area meets the trunk area? Typically but not always where the rear speakers are mounted.
So the final check would be if it has a permanent parcel shelf it is a trunk, and if it has a hatch with or without glass that opens into the passenger compartment then it's a hatchback, correct?
quote:Originally posted by H-O-Alts-Rick: Can I get a little clearification though. "OEM parcel shelf" Would that be the shelf were the rear window/passenger compartment area meets the trunk area? Typically but not always where the rear speakers are mounted.
So the final check would be if it has a permanent parcel shelf it is a trunk, and if it has a hatch with or without glass that opens into the passenger compartment then it's a hatchback, correct?
I have been trying to get some kind of answer since July or aug my original question. In the world of 2 seater cars your definition is clear for a CRX's and Panda's but not for many others. Any chance any certified judge could clearify this reply, this year?
posted
pandas are not 2 seat cars. Your car has already been defined by judges, what is the problem?
-------------------- "A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history--with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila." - unknown
quote:NDMstang65 (9:54:55 PM): scottie gagged me once...
Posts: 8920 | From: Camdenton, Missouri, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Broken Silence - Johnny: pandas are not 2 seat cars. Your car has already been defined by judges, what is the problem?
The judges did rule on my car. I would like to know what rule they based it on. I am assuming it is this definition, which only seems to be here. I have read and reread the rules and can't find it in there.
A certified judge wrote this thread and I would like some clearifacation. I beleive this area is for rules discussion, I have a question about a rule.
Are you a really a part of the rules decision process or were you just certified to do a 3X becuase none of the other judges were available to do the 3x at USACI finals? If you are a certiied judge, why didn't you reply to any of the emails I sent to all of the judges last aug and sept? Most of all if you are part of the rules proccess could you possibly answer my question instead of being an a$$?
I beleive my first question was clear but I will post it yet again
quote:Originally posted by H-O-Alts-Rick: So the final check would be if it has a permanent parcel shelf it is a trunk, and if it has a hatch with or without glass that opens into the passenger compartment then it's a hatchback, correct?
posted
I never received any emails from you, I responded to your pm's that I was not interested in holding any shows at those times because of work and school commitments. It doesnt really matter why I am certified, I am.
As far as your car is concerned, the judges ruled on what they thought was correct after looking at your car. I am not them, so I dont know what they looked at. When I look at your vette, I see a hatchback because of the way it is setup. To me, a trunk has something that divides it from the passenger compartment, and it also has a permanent rear deck. Your car has neither.
-------------------- "A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history--with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila." - unknown
quote:NDMstang65 (9:54:55 PM): scottie gagged me once...
Posts: 8920 | From: Camdenton, Missouri, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Broken Silence - Johnny: I never received any emails from you, I responded to your pm's that I was not interested in holding any shows at those times because of work and school commitments. It doesnt really matter why I am certified, I am.
As far as your car is concerned, the judges ruled on what they thought was correct after looking at your car. I am not them, so I dont know what they looked at. When I look at your vette, I see a hatchback because of the way it is setup. To me, a trunk has something that divides it from the passenger compartment, and it also has a permanent rear deck. Your car has neither.
I emailed all of the certfied judges using the link found on this forum.
Your opinion has been received but I am looking for a clearifaction to a rule not an opinion. In my opinion and by every definition I have found anywhere a hatchback vehicle has a hatch in the back and a trunk is the main cargo area in a vehicle. Logically almost all vehicles have a trunk(including hatchbacks) but only some have a hatchback.I guess thats not the case either. If dB Drag doesn't define it that way thats fine. I would like a clear way to tell them apart. All I want is someway that is a clear way to tell them apart.
For the record my car does have a permanent rear deck/parcell shelf, it's exactly where you would expect to find it also. It is located between the trunk and back window. If dB Drag is using that as a definition then my car is legal as long as the box stays below that shelf,correct? Basically thats 3 inch shorter then USACI but still a logical definition.
When did you look at the interior of my car and determine it doesn't have a permanent rear deck?
posted
Ok I am lost can someone bring me up to speed....I dont know the perpous of this thread....i though box high was bassed on the front window line.....has something changed?
posted
Box height is determined by the window line only in hatchbacks not trunk cars. You have worked on my car...Does it have a hatchback? Do you remember the rear deck?
This is a couple of really crappy pictures but they do show the rear deck. It is larger then it looks, we thought about using it to mount amps on, and it is most definatly permanent
This is not mine but has the same deck as mine and shows it pretty clearly.
posted
Rick, there's a simple answer here. Your car has a "rear deck" but it is not meant to divide the passenger compartment and the cargo area. If that "rear deck" had a storage area behind it, then you could build up to the height of the rear deck assuming the box was in the storage area. As you're not using that as a "trunk car", but instead a hatchback style install then you must comply with the hatchback rules.
-------------------- Team Shedluv Team Sweep Team Kicker Team JBL
posted
Well rick its not a crx so you know the rules wont conform to you. lol To me a hatch back has to have a hatch...hence the hatch part of the term. Good luck rick...cause the way steve defined it ures is a hatch back.....just break down and buy a crx like everyone has to do since the rules seem to conform to that car. Even if its not intenstional(spell check). I still dont understan why crx's can have the rear hatch cover taken out. O i know why cause then crx's wouldnt work lol. I look at the hatch cover as the same as seats in a van in streat...usuer removable. But you can't take the seats out. The crx will always rules street in the USA unless the rules change alot. Just my 2 cents.
posted
It is permitted to take hatch covers out in other cars, why not the crx? You can take out a 3rd row seat in a van or SUV, but not a 2nd row. You cant push the box past that seat anyways so it doesnt matter too much.
-------------------- "A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history--with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila." - unknown
quote:NDMstang65 (9:54:55 PM): scottie gagged me once...
Posts: 8920 | From: Camdenton, Missouri, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Thats my point johnny. You cant take out the second row even though its user removable and slide the box there cause of the sliding side door and intent blah blah blah. But in a crx u can put a boxe over the "oem stoarage compartment" so you cant get in it and take the hatch cover off also. Not trying to pick a fight or get this off subject but anyone even the judges who have been around for a few years can see where the rules have tented to acomendate the crx and handicap all other vech. that have got close to them. Like i said before It might of not been on perpous but thats where its ened up. Buy a crx or try to import a panda or dont plan on winning finals.
posted
By the way rick I agree with the others you need to stay below the front window line. After I though about it. I still say it would make a sick street a car even though its basicaly the toughest street class.
quote:Originally posted by The WooferWagon: By the way rick I agree with the others you need to stay below the front window line. After I though about it. I still say it would make a sick street a car even though its basicaly the toughest street class.
there is nothing in there dividing the cargo area from the passenger area.
as there is in any other TRUNK car on the planet.
-------------------- Team Maxxsonics . Kinetik Power Maxxsonics Team Captain 2005 WF SM 1-2 6th place 2006 WF SM 1-2 4th Place : U.S. Points 3rd w/315 points : SPLMax Competitor of the Year. 2007 WF SM 1-2 4th Place : U.S. Points 9th w/215 points : Top U.S. SM 1-2 certified score. 2007 Usaci State Records : Mod 2001-4000 : Mod 4000-up : Port Wars Open : Street Beat 4. 2008 Sold the nissan and took a break to build a new minitruck. 2009 Coming back with Bass Race & Psychlone in the minitruck.
quote:Originally posted by The WooferWagon: By the way rick I agree with the others you need to stay below the front window line. After I though about it. I still say it would make a sick street a car even though its basicaly the toughest street class.
Ok..... but based on what rule or definition?
Ok, I guess I wasn't clear enough.
Your "rear deck" doesn't not meet this definition:
The dBDRA defines a Trunk Vehicle that has a "permanent" or OEM parcel shelf ( non consumer removable aka normal operation )that divides the storage area from the passenger compartment
You have no division between the storage area and passenger compartment, therefore its not a trunk car.
I could explain more, but that is the simple answer. I'm not a judge and this is an opinion, but this is obvious when you read the definition why your car does not comply.
-------------------- Team Shedluv Team Sweep Team Kicker Team JBL
posted
Mike thats exsactly how I was looking at it aa the same as a ext cab truck even one without seats back there. Like a king cab...you still go by the front windows. And also like porn star and matt said there is no rear deck lid that seprates the front cabin from the rear cabin like in a regular trunk vech.
posted
LMAO now corvettes are trucks. As crazy as it may sound (saying a Corvette is a truck) I agree it is a more logical way to look at it then saying it has a hatchback. The problem is that basically I have been told it's a hatchback because (insert whatever reason of the week here). Well guess what ....it's not. You might as well tell me it's pink with poka-dots. It's just insulting to anyone's intelligence to say that any car without a hatch in the back is a hatchback car. By the definition given at the top of this thread all early corvettes are neither a hatchback or a trunk car or both a hatchback and a trunk car depening on which parts you want to use or if you apply the whole thing. All I am really looking for here is the rules to include cars like this without insulting my intelligence in the process by trying to find a way to call my car something it's not. I would like the rules to include cars that are neither hatchbacks or trunks and help level the playing field for more types of cars.
The other orgs rules are written in a way that do not care what the car is and they have many more types of cars competing with a bigger variety of equipment. This is good for getting new competitors since you don't need to buy a car to be competitive.
I also have noticed that the install rules for the bigger divisions mirror each other in dB drag and Usaci, they even use the same drawings to illustrate what can be done. I assume this is so that people can run both orgs without major changes. This too is good for the sport by increasing turnouts for both orgs at shows by allowing the same install to be legal at either. So why are the entry level classes so different.
For those not familiar with what is different I will list the major things and my opinion of the result.
1. Batteries dB Drag allows 1 in ST A + ST B an 2 in c This has been done to limit power to amps thus keep amp size down but instead has lead to the use of $1200 batteries. It also leads to more blown amps from low voltage.
Batteries in Usaci Pro Stock are unlimited but must be properly installed. This allows the use of cheaper batteries to be used.
2. Car off in dB drag. Once again $1200 batteries, and damaged amps from low voltage.
Car running in Usaci Cheap batteries and less of them. This also is more realistic for a street system.
3. 12volt only batteries in dB drag This is done because supposedly nobody runs 16v in a street car.....I get at least a call a week from a non competitor setting up a 16v set up though.
16v batteries in Usaci It allows smaller/cheaper amps to be used but still produce good power.
4. box height in dB drag is based on front door window line This has given a few cars a huge advantage over others. The box height needs limited somehow but what do the front doors have to do with it?
Box height is limited by rear windows in Usaci This is done with safety in mind. It's so that no rear view is blocked. It also makes many more cars able to compete reasonably with CRX's. It is much easier to test also. Just use a laser light through the windows if you don't hit the install then your legal.
It seems many of the street rules in dB drag are in place to keep cost down by limiting power without using amp ratings. What has happened is that it actually cost more. In reality the only real power limit that is working is amount of power a voice coil will handle, you just need to be willing to spend a ton of money for the right amps an batteries. The classes already limit the number of subs/voice coils so that's the only power limit that is working.
Usaci I am sure is not perfect but the rules do seem to help keep cost own and allow many types of cars to compete with a wider variety of equipment on a more level playing field. As much as I know everyone is against changing the rules at all, sometimes you need to admit what you thought was perfect needs some changes. I am sure I will get flamed for this by the CRX crowd but I feel strongly about dB drag limiting their growth potential to only those willing to make a huge investment just to get started in this sport.
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