posted
First off, let me start off by stating that I don't know who this guy is (but have called him/them), nor do I know "DOM" and the business he does.
Here's want I do know: a) you guys have already talked about this, but the question at hand is "how do you burp an alternator?" Our conversation with "him" explained how they are measuring the output, and if we did that we would get those #'s or higher. Let me just say it's not the standard way of measuring!
b) Our contacts in this business, which there aren't very many, claim that it is not only impossible "long term", but could not be done in a small case. It reminds me of what my old electronics teacher once told me, " You can get shocked with 3000 volts at 200 amps.....once."
I was at SBN, I didn't hear any mention of a 700 alternator. I had meter in hand looking for this alt.
In return, my engineering staff got wind of this claim and are up to the challenge. Someone said something like "just because someone says it can't be done, doesn't mean it can't be done." Well, let's see what our engineering staff with over 30 years experience can do.
Last but not least, we have some mean items to come. I can't let the cat out of the bag, but it's gonna be sweet.
I know you guys as competitors are tired of hearing claims that aren't backed up. As someone mentioned "do you want this alt or one that works!". So far we haven't made a claim that we haven't backed (contact Danny Hays, Team Driven 1, Alan Laake of Team MTX). We stand behind our product, not claiming it works once, but everytime you depend on it.
That said, I'm out Jose Blanco National Sales Manager H.O. Alternators.
-------------------- PLEASE NOTE! THIS POST WAS MADE BY JOSE OF H.O. ALTERNATORS---NOT RICK.What are YOU doing?...HO STUFF Posts: 300 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by H.O. Alternators: First off, let me start off by stating that I don't know who this guy is (but have called him/them), nor do I know "DOM" and the business he does.
Here's want I do know: a) you guys have already talked about this, but the question at hand is "how do you burp an alternator?" Our conversation with "him" explained how they are measuring the output, and if we did that we would get those #'s or higher. Let me just say it's not the standard way of measuring!
b) Our contacts in this business, which there aren't very many, claim that it is not only impossible "long term", but could not be done in a small case. It reminds me of what my old electronics teacher once told me, " You can get shocked with 3000 volts at 200 amps.....once."
I was at SBN, I didn't hear any mention of a 700 alternator. I had meter in hand looking for this alt.
In return, my engineering staff got wind of this claim and are up to the challenge. Someone said something like "just because someone says it can't be done, doesn't mean it can't be done." Well, let's see what our engineering staff with over 30 years experience can do.
Last but not least, we have some mean items to come. I can't let the cat out of the bag, but it's gonna be sweet.
I know you guys as competitors are tired of hearing claims that aren't backed up. As someone mentioned "do you want this alt or one that works!". So far we haven't made a claim that we haven't backed (contact Danny Hays, Team Driven 1, Alan Laake of Team MTX). We stand behind our product, not claiming it works once, but everytime you depend on it.
That said, I'm out Jose Blanco National Sales Manager H.O. Alternators.
Just to clarify, "DOM" (Dominick) has nothing to do with the guy claiming 700 amp alts. But I do agree... power like that will not be acheived using conventional methods.
-------------------- Scottie Johnson Sound Pressure Technologies
posted
Let ME start by saying that Im not the person responsible for the infamous 700 amp alternator.
If you would like to call me, my shop number is 615-287-7991 or 615-594-8965. I would be glad to have a good conversation.
A. What they probably meant by "burping" the alternator was that the stereo system was used as the load for the alt. When the system was burped, the alt was loaded and the measurment was taken. Which in my opinion, is a load in itself. LOL!!
B. So your saying there is a method of testing that will yield an output approaching 700 amps, or more, from a 200 amp alt? I would like to see this inspection procedure on paper.
C. What is the standard method of testing? In your opinion.
D. What is the maximum amperage that a CS-144 alternator is capable of? Again, in your opinion. Long term or short term, either way.
E. What challenge is your engineering staff up to? Im always up for a good challenge. Maybe I can get in on the action. That would be great.
That was my quote. "Just because someone says it can't be done, doesn't mean it can't be done." Im usually the one that does it.
F. How about a one on one test published in the Car Audio related mags? I think that would be a great thing for consumers to see and be confirmed who the best of the best alt designers/builders are. What do you think?
Thanks, Dominick Iraggi
-------------------- LOUDEST CERTIFIED SCORE ON LINEAR X 172.0
2002 UsaCi Super Modified 0-1000 World Champion 173.6 2002 UsaCi Legal World Record Holder Expert 0-600 (B&K) 171.0 (171.4) 2003 Meca XX-Class Record Holder 172.0 (backed up with a 171.9) Posts: 1194 | From: LaVergne TN. | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
i get confused about this post whenever i read it. Let me halp to make clarifications to my understandings.
#1 HO Alts is the company that makes alts for limosines and now for car audio located in Iowa, and was sponsoring someone to go to daytona.
#2 Dominick is Owner and Builder of Iraggi Alternators.
#3 Some guy out there thinks he has alts that measures 700 amps of current draw from the alt when burped. Neither of the 2 Companies above have anything to do with this company here.
#4 Dominick contacted the company of 700 amp alts to find out specifics and testing procedures. Per discussions about said alternator claim, we would like real world testing to see if its capable of doing what it says.
#5 Both companies (#1 & #2) shall remain innocent of outragous bullshyt claims about their alternators. As for company #3, like i have said before it, I like my alts to do what they say. I dont like my alts rated like California Profile amplifiers!
i hope this clears it up. hope we get good tests on this thing to actually find out its true output.
Posts: 8930 | From: over yonder | Registered: May 2001
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A, B, and C... When I claim that an alt is 200 amps, that is tested not only with the latest DV tester (a computerized tester that only tests alternators)within certain load and RMP perameters. Do note that alternator RMP is not the same as engine RPM. As I mentioned, I could test they way "they" are measuring...I know how they are doing it, don't plan on stating here on this forum, but believe me, it's so off the wall...As stated, my standard way of measuring the alt IS AT THE ALT. No where else, under a load.
D. When we first started H.O. Alternators (a division of American Armature), our engineers were given two tasks....make a high output alternator and make it last. Reliabilty is the bigest problem with HOs. Yes, we do sell to limousines...didn't start there, but they use them too. Limo guys get paid by the second! They're out there and an alt goes down, boom...they're loosing money. As far are higher than 200 amp output....We've never asked them. This whole situation started a landslide. I KNOW!!! there will come a time (soon) where they (my engineers) are going to come to me an make the following statement "We can make a **** Amp alternator, but we're not going to manufacture it because it won't last". That said, I've poked my head in on them and that's pretty much where they stand, they want a HO that's reliable. They've cooked up some neat prototypes that if I stated now would require me to sign up for witness relocation protection. Also, I've heard that other companies have made irroneous statements, then never back 'em up.
E (and F). The challenge is to make the highest HO alt that is reliable. I remeber being asked by a competitor at SBN about how large an alt can get. We answered him by asking him the question "Do you want an alt that puts out 200 amps that you won't have to change all season or do you want a **** amp alt that you have to change every other time you go to the lane? Maybe, no scratch that, I know there are competors out there that want every edge possible, and they will go through the work to get it done. More grounded competitors want to sleep at night, not having to worry when their alt is going to crash. Maybe a mag article would be great, but how would THEY test the alts, how would they test them for longevity (sp?)Other than that, I think it's a great idea.
I'd like to publish WHY an alt is the way to go. Many people I've contacted do not have an idea of why an alt is even needed. I plan on updating our webby, with something that I'd like to see in a mag.
That said, I'm out again Jose H.O. Alternators
-------------------- PLEASE NOTE! THIS POST WAS MADE BY JOSE OF H.O. ALTERNATORS---NOT RICK.What are YOU doing?...HO STUFF Posts: 300 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Im not trying to sound fecious or anyting, but would you be able to call me at the shop to talk about the questions that you didnt answer? My numbers are in the previous post. I look forward to talking to you.
What are the prerequisits for reliability? How do you test reliability at your facility? I know how we do it, I was just curious about your procedures.
I have asked myself MANY times about who and how would a magazine would perform a valid test on alternators. Here are a couple of options I come up with..
1. Have a number of companies submit their "200" amp alternator. Take all samples and have each company test all the samples for comparison. Not necessarily for amount of output, but for a side by side comparison of how different each alt is from the other with the same testing procedure that the have within their facility. You could then rate each alt as number 1 thru 5. (If you had 5 alts). You could then take an average of what all manufacturers tested a particular alt to do. This could be your average amperage. I already know that all companies will come up with different numbers but the best alt should still be the best alt, no matter what amperage they say it did.
2. You could take the magazine represenatitive and have him personally take all the alts to a single testing facility. This will ensure there is no foul play. The above method (#1) actually has built in checks and balances for a Mfg. supplying bogus numbers. They would be the only Mfg. that said one alt did way better than the others when no one else did.
The big problem I see with this is how the Mfg. test the alts. If a testing proccedure was agreed upon by all mfg's, that would be great. It would just have to be made sure that the inspection procedure was followed exactly like its written.
Does anyone else have any input? I dont wanna feel like this is a 2 man conversation.
Peace Out Hommies... Dominick Iraggi
Iraggi Alternators.
-------------------- LOUDEST CERTIFIED SCORE ON LINEAR X 172.0
2002 UsaCi Super Modified 0-1000 World Champion 173.6 2002 UsaCi Legal World Record Holder Expert 0-600 (B&K) 171.0 (171.4) 2003 Meca XX-Class Record Holder 172.0 (backed up with a 171.9) Posts: 1194 | From: LaVergne TN. | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
I understand what both of you are saying, i feel that for a HO alt to be worth the time and effort not only to built but to market it should be reliable. I have personally not have had to replace an alt due to short term life span, but i've never had a car long enough to be able to determine that. I do though plan to have the car i have now for quite some time and i would want an alt that would last 4+ years under normal use.
my last statement would be that yes if all alt manufactures used the same procedure to test the output of their alts it would make things alot easier and more strait forward for the consumer.
also, what are your websites, i am looking into a new alt and have not been able to find either of your sites.
-------------------- Look down on me, you'll see a fool. Look up at me, you'll see your lord. Look strait at me, you'll see yourself.
www.rs-audio.de <---check em out my page <---My sound domain site. check it out Posts: 80 | From: Pocatello, Idaho | Registered: Nov 2002
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quote:Originally posted by suprafreak: I understand what both of you are saying, i feel that for a HO alt to be worth the time and effort not only to built but to market it should be reliable. I have personally not have had to replace an alt due to short term life span, but i've never had a car long enough to be able to determine that. I do though plan to have the car i have now for quite some time and i would want an alt that would last 4+ years under normal use.
my last statement would be that yes if all alt manufactures used the same procedure to test the output of their alts it would make things alot easier and more strait forward for the consumer.
also, what are your websites, i am looking into a new alt and have not been able to find either of your sites.
i dont know the HO alt one, it was posted here about sponsoring someone to go to Daytona, so do a search on that one. Dominick doesn't have a website yet, we were working on that but to due to Iraggi Alternator's being busy, we havent had time to finalize it. send Dom an email if you want it finished at dominick@tds.net . shane
Posts: 8930 | From: over yonder | Registered: May 2001
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mayb you guys can answer me this...why does it matter if you havea 700amp alt..alt dont do the current untill its needed rite.? so ther for unless you have a big load already pulling the bats down the alts not going to do **** untill after the burp..or if you hold on to it..during the end of the burp...rite or wrong? this is jsut what i gather from my alt guy..heseems ot know his hsit pretty well...but im loking for a 2nd and or 3rd opinon also
-------------------- Alan Hall Broken Silence CC 2007 usaci mod 1001-2000 champion 163.6 2003 usaci mod151-300 legal record holder 4th 2002 usaci finals mod 0-150 6th 2003 usaci finals mod 151-300 4th 2004 usaci finals prostock 1001-5000 4th 2005 usac finals mod 301-900 Posts: 667 | From: Troy IL | Registered: Apr 2000
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i guess they do the tests without batteries, and im not sure how you could get anywhere close to 700 amps at idle without your car showing some effect. but their is a guy on ebay selling the 200 amp ones and a 700 amp that i have not seen in auction but. i heard someone called and it retailed at close to $3000.
-------------------- Infiniti J30 2 kicker solo x 12s 2 kicker 2500.1 @ 1 ohm wall, 7 cubes, 100 sq port 149.1 DB at 42hz. DiRtY SoUtH DEAF SqUaD Posts: 1361 | From: Columbia, SC | Registered: Jan 2003
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on my vehicle I have a GM small case alt. that was rated at 180amps peak, at idle tested on a bat 40 machine(I think that was the name) it put out 148amps at idle and at 2000rpms(the highest permited by dbdrag) my alt put out 197amps. then with an inductive amp meter later that day I burped my sysitem to check amperage draw and voltage and the results were very different. at idle 15.1volts and 20amps while burping at idle my voltage dropped to 11.5volts and my current draw was 158amps in my car I have 2 interstate batts. rated at 725CCA my alt was built by Lonnie Bain at Big Moe alts in SanAntonio Tx. and I have had it for 5 years on 2 different cars the only problem I ever had with it was the voltage regulator on it would burn up but ever since I put it on the firewall it hasn't happend just thought someone might care sorry
posted
nice alt mario, it does what it says and more. now most of the concern with an alt is that it holds up and does what it says all the time. would you want to buy an amp that says 100 watts continous but 1000 watts for one second? probably not. for most of the people out there they like to drive their comp cars also, and they like their products to last. so if they had an alt that claimed 700 amps and only did it for 1 second and then back to 100 amps or so, wouldnt you be frustrated? but the main concern with this alt is the testing procedure. with curiosity and skeptism, some would like to see the alt tested properly to see if it does what it says.
Posts: 8930 | From: over yonder | Registered: May 2001
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Last time I picked up a car magazine (motor week, or what ever it's called) they not only talked about new vehicles, but they also talked about previous vehicles they tested/reviewed. I can't remember what issue it was, but it was about a Neon they reviewed when it first came out. This article only interested me because I used to own one. They talked about everything: how many recalls it had, how many miles they put on it, how many times something got serviced, how many oil changes it had, etc. In the end, they totaled the amount of service the vehicle needed and graded it upon that.
So that brings up the question: how does any periodicle test for longevity of any product? As mentioned in another post, we (American Armature, our parent company) have been doing this type of work for over 20 years. Companies like John Deere depend on our craftmanship and quaility assurance. Yes, we build their products to their specification, but those specification have changed over the years. A company like John Deere doesn't get the repuctation they have by building poor products. If we've failed them, I don't believe we would be dealing with them for the past 2 decades.
As far as a maginze in concerned, I believe they should buy the alts unknowingly from the manufacturer. If "mag a" called a place up and told them they wanted to review an alt, I believe some mfgs would beef it up to look good for the review, but then return to normal production for the ones they sell to the public. Not only that, but what model of alt should they test? A 3g, 4g, CS130, 144, AD series? Which one would be tested? Would our 3g T mount look any different from yours...the output curve would be different. IE output per RMP.
You said " I already know that all companies will come up with different numbers but the best alt should still be the best alt, no matter what amperage they say it did." What would determine the "best" alt?
Here's my thought there was a standard way of testing: Put an alt on a vehicle with one batt., run it at 2000, measure the output in series (current) from the output wire to the batt. You could even calculate wattage so that the load would not make a numerical difference (current goes down, but the voltage goes up)
All I'm going to say to finish is "Reliabiltiy!". Almost all of the compeitors (and show guys within the convention center) at SBN said that they were tired of lies. They were told one thing, that to this day has yet to be fulfilled. I don't plan on making unfulfilled promises.
That said I'm out Jose Blanco H.O. Alternators
-------------------- PLEASE NOTE! THIS POST WAS MADE BY JOSE OF H.O. ALTERNATORS---NOT RICK.What are YOU doing?...HO STUFF Posts: 300 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Iraggi Alternator 121 Highland St. LaVergne Tn. 37086
615-287-7991 Business 615-594-8965 Cellular dominick@tds.net E-Mail
"Beefing Up" an alternator would just make the alt look worse. You will loose idle output and way exceed the max rating. Exceeding the max is fine.....but your taking away from the low end. I dont see any problem with the Mfg. sending an alt with the intention of being tested in comparison of the other alts.
Why not use the most popular alt case style, CS-144. Everyone makes one of these high amp.
In my opinion the best alt is the one that had these characteristics...
1.Meet or exceed its max rated output. 2.Highest output at idle. 3.Most cost effective.
There are way too many drawbacks to testing an alt on the vehicle....
1.RPM varies too much when a load is applied. That shoots repeatability out the window. 2.Too time consuming to install and uninstall multiple alts in a vehicle. 3.Hopefully you will use a variable load tester to determine output. So the only difference is the method of turning the alt. All load testers have a battery or some kind of constant load present when an alt is hooked up to it....Same as a car.
Its obvious that your motive for posting here is for advertisment, not sharing information. If you read the rules of the forum you will see that there is no advertising allowed. I post here for helpful information not for soliciting. I even recommend talking to other manufacturers about their alt questions. 99% of the time noone on here even knows who I am. I dont post my name or number. You may want to do the same.
If I were a moderator....this post would be closed. Hint, Hint. Oh ya, you never did call me to talk about the 700 amp alt guy. I was looking forward to talking about it.
Thanks, Dom
-------------------- LOUDEST CERTIFIED SCORE ON LINEAR X 172.0
2002 UsaCi Super Modified 0-1000 World Champion 173.6 2002 UsaCi Legal World Record Holder Expert 0-600 (B&K) 171.0 (171.4) 2003 Meca XX-Class Record Holder 172.0 (backed up with a 171.9) Posts: 1194 | From: LaVergne TN. | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
i believe that Dom is right, and Jose is right too. Jose wouldnt be in business if he hasnt made reliable alts for so long, and I know how swamped Dom is now with the alt production and happy customers referring his product. The only one left in question is the 700 amp alt guy. As for advertising, you gotta watch your step around this section, fixxxer follows the rules to a T and if he sees anything that remotely looks close to an advertisement the post is history. However i do not wish to see you leave the forum or not, we can always use more help in this section from manufacturers and it will give you a great chance to see where the car audio consumers standpoint may be. If you seen a hundred people asking for color coated alts then it might make you develop something to fit their needs. give dom a call, he dont bite, and he is always up to good conversation about anything Posts: 8930 | From: over yonder | Registered: May 2001
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posted
I just read all this stuff and looked at the ebay posting and I know the guy, Virgil, that the ebay post is talking about; he has a shop down here where I live. He was supposed to be at sbn but blew all of his subs the day before . I have seen his truck and he showed me the alternator and #1 it is something I have never seen before as the way it is built. The picture on ebay is not all of the alternator. #2 Before he got the alt on a friend had me go test his amps has far as power output and such with my amp clamp and volt meters. He, Virgil, didn't know what the amp clamp was . #3 I went back over to his shop oneday to see where he stood on the truck and that is when he showed me the alts. One was on the truck and one was in a chair not hooked up yet. He told me they were 700 amps and I just . I didnt have my clamp and don't try to get to involved with him and his truck so I couldn't test it; besides my clamp only goes to 400 amps on dc current. As far as him knowing that the alt put out that much see #2; he didn't know what an amp clamp was until I showed him and as of the second time I went to his shop I know he hadn't went and bought one either. #4 He was at the usaci show in Panama City with the truck and I watched him go do his runs and watched the volt meter he had on the batteries and it took a while to get the voltage up to 15 something on 12 volt batteries. Now on my truck I have a 200 amp alt that was tested on the bench and it put out 270 amps, I watched the test, when I crank the voltage up on my truck, 12 volt batteries same as Virgil's truck just not as many, think he has 12-16 batts and I have 8, my voltage goes up in a hurry to around 16 volts. So with all this said, just going off my trucks voltage climb and he's I don't think it is nowhere near a 700 amp alt but I could be wrong. I guess if he gets his woofers back going maybe he will let me put my clamp on it to see if it even does 400 amps. And that's all I'm going to say about that! Posts: 475 | From: jugg, fl | Registered: Apr 2001
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