quote:Originally posted by diamond: i looked at the amp jim.i have a hard time skimmin specs now but i didnt see a way the amp will bandpass those channels.darn brain fog.lol.
If you go to zapco DC line, it shows what the processor does. It does have the 6-24 db slope adj, 10 band eq per channel, high pass, low pass, band pass, time delay by distance and time , input modes and more
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Work in progress, so far; 50 sq. ft. of B-quiet ultimate. Adding another 50 Alpine CDA-9886 (2) Zapco DC 350.2 amps w/ int. processor (1) REF 500.1 mono amp Posts: 42 | From: Seattle | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
what frequencies on the bandpass? 20-20 i wonder?
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Did anyone see my comment about the kicks. They r close do the door hole location, maybe 1.75 ft.. I read that If the kick is not at least 3 feet away from your door location, its not going to be worth the hassle for the little gain. If any at all because of more factors involved, ie. reflections, distance, etc.
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Work in progress, so far; 50 sq. ft. of B-quiet ultimate. Adding another 50 Alpine CDA-9886 (2) Zapco DC 350.2 amps w/ int. processor (1) REF 500.1 mono amp Posts: 42 | From: Seattle | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
thanks andy.K+..seams that would work.need another amp to biamp . im not understanding the 3 foot rule?i would think anytime you make the pathlenght into better alighnment(4th gradercant spell,lol.still know my address though,ha" imaging improves somewhat.how's it possible to get 3 foot from door?im confused.just because the stage wont be perfect doesnt mean its not worth the effort and cant be focused. id rather have a dash level stage than all around me.maybe will be higher,who knows.we can only try.pray to the off axis god.lol.i dont pray.woops.it will take more than luck too!
-------------------- Mob Rules,78 IQ will school termpro,lol. Life is more than spec's on a sheet of paper! Better to live on your feet, Than die on your knees why does termpro make me expose their facist ways? the corporation> http://www.guba.com/watch/3000028640 thats why!
posted
You wanted the greatest pathlengths you can get. 1" is worth moving something over.
Also on the F150 of that year, look closely at the door speaker and at the grill. Half the speaker is not playing through the grill. It is firing into the hard plastic of the door. Most of that door panel is over a spot that doesn't have the speaker. That door sucks ass for speakers. I wouldn't put anything in it.
posted
Also, I can't think of a single car that the door speaker location to kick panel is going to be 3 feet. that is huge in the confines of a car. Maybe in a cargo van that would be the case, but nothing else would. That rule makes no sense to me and absolutely isn't true.
posted
Ok, thanks alot for your opinion Andy. And you r right, part of the speak is blocked by the door panel, but to me looks like the outer edge only and a 6.5 will only be 1/4 more on each side. I was thinking of cutting the vents and maybe flushing the 6.5's with the panel and homemade grills. Tweets will be in the pillars but will temp them untill best sound is found.
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Work in progress, so far; 50 sq. ft. of B-quiet ultimate. Adding another 50 Alpine CDA-9886 (2) Zapco DC 350.2 amps w/ int. processor (1) REF 500.1 mono amp Posts: 42 | From: Seattle | Registered: Mar 2009
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I am thinking I will get the DC 200.2 amp that is 50 RMS x 2. Is 50 RMS watts enough for tweets? Will be pushing 100 RMSx 2 to the mids. Of course I will try to match wattages as close as possible.
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Work in progress, so far; 50 sq. ft. of B-quiet ultimate. Adding another 50 Alpine CDA-9886 (2) Zapco DC 350.2 amps w/ int. processor (1) REF 500.1 mono amp Posts: 42 | From: Seattle | Registered: Mar 2009
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well,after watching people throw little cheater amps in there cars for second set of tweets at shows,why not i say.minimum wattage anytime though for me.not optimun to me.headroom man.i like it.but i dont kmow if 50 watts going to give ya that.i may do just what i said too.so i casn ditch the 9.0. and stay stereo in my doors.my question is,would 50-75 watts keep up with 170 per?8k> pillars.seams rediculouse huh.looks like i need another 6.0.used!!oh darno......poor me
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posted
hmm, well might just go with another DC350.2 That would be 100 rms to mids and 100 rms to tweets. Probably woudnt have to push the amp so hard then.
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Work in progress, so far; 50 sq. ft. of B-quiet ultimate. Adding another 50 Alpine CDA-9886 (2) Zapco DC 350.2 amps w/ int. processor (1) REF 500.1 mono amp Posts: 42 | From: Seattle | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
right on!i think your creapin up on your alts limit.may need a extra battery.not at reference level though maybe .may be ok,your under 1k.well see.loud ,the lights are going to dim,pretty sure of that.theres somehting to look into jim.
-------------------- Mob Rules,78 IQ will school termpro,lol. Life is more than spec's on a sheet of paper! Better to live on your feet, Than die on your knees why does termpro make me expose their facist ways? the corporation> http://www.guba.com/watch/3000028640 thats why!
posted
Yeah, and or higher output alternator as well. We will have to see. Will be 900 RMS watts total and 1200 peak. I emailed Zapco rep and asked more questions too.
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Work in progress, so far; 50 sq. ft. of B-quiet ultimate. Adding another 50 Alpine CDA-9886 (2) Zapco DC 350.2 amps w/ int. processor (1) REF 500.1 mono amp Posts: 42 | From: Seattle | Registered: Mar 2009
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Ok, now that I've covered speaker selection and how to build the front speaker system, I will now move on to installation. I'm going to break it down into two parts, speaker location and speaker aiming.
Speaker Location: It seems to me that there is a lot of misinformation out there on this subject. Usually people will say that kick pannel locations are best. The reasoning is that you want to reduce the pathlength differences between the two sides. To clarify that a bit; you want to have the distance between your head an the left speaker to be as close as possible to the distance between your head and the right speaker. Kick pannel installations do offer this advantage over the more common stock lower door mounting location. However the question is if this difference is audible. The answer is usually no.
To understand the reason why it isn't audible, you have to understand some things about how the human ear works. For instance, you must understand where we get our imaging cues from. For frequencies above 1000 Hz, we get our imaging cues strictly from differences in output. In other words, if a tone within this band of frequencies is played louder by the left speaker then the right, then the tone will sound like it is coming from the left side. For frequencies 500 Hz and down, imaging cues are strictly preceived by timing cues. Now you will probably notice that midrange speakers do play a portion of those frequencies effected by timing cues. So therefore those kick pannel locations should still make sense correct? Well there is one other phenomenon we must look at. That is the latent time of fusion. Basically what that is is how quickly our ears can preceive sound. Our ears cannot preceive sounds quicker than around 3 miliseconds. In other words if you played 2 tones within 3 miliseconds of eachother, they would sound like one tone. So to make an actual audible difference in the timing cues of a speaker, you would need to move it to where the sounds it produces are 3 miliseconds sooner or later than the original spot. This works out to be about 3 feet. So unless you are moving the speakers 3 feet from the stock locations, then you won't get an audible difference in timing cues.
So what can we learn from all of this? Well first of all, it is recommended to adjust the gains on the amp/processor to balance any differences in pathlengths. What this means is turn down the level of the closer set of speakers. Also if you have a phase/time alignment adjustability in any processor to utilize it to balance the timing differences as well. Once you get those set, and as long as you have a good frequency response, you should have an incredible soundstage with very focused imaging.
Speaker Aiming: Many people also recommend aiming the speakers toward the listener. In some instances, this could be benificial. However it is important to understand when to go throug the trouble to do it. Speakers produce sound quite evenly across a very wide axis. However as you start to go up in frequency, they will start to "beam" the sound. The frequency at which this starts to happen depends on the size of the speaker in question (D^2/lamda). A larger midrange like a 6.5 will start to beam at about 2.5 kHz. A 25mm (1") tweeter will start to beam at about 18 kHz. This doesn't mean that it doesn't produce any sound above those frequencies at a given off axis point. It just means that those higher frequencies are reduced. Many companies offer frequency response measurements of their speakers at different axis points. Take some time to look these over and see what the frequency response does when the speaker isn't pointed directly at you. Also note the frequency different sized drivers start to beam.
So when do we need to aim the speakers? Well if you are planning on using a 6.5" midrange up to 4 kHz, then it would be a very good idea to aim it more toward you. Otherwise you would have a dip in the frequency response that could have serious negative effects to equalize back. The more you aim it toward you, the less of a dip there will be. However if the driver isn't going to beam within the bandwidth you are running it, then there is no need to aim the driver. Also, if you are going with the passive crossover design mentioned earlier, then you can reduce this a bit at the cost off efficiency.
Hopefully that will help you guys install your speakers correctly. I do want to give credit where credit is due. Most of the stuff I have posted is what I have learned from my boss, Dan Wiggins. Again, please feel free to ask questions if you have any, add your own comments, or disagree. Keep in mind that there are no dumb questions.
Steven Kephart
Adire Audio
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Work in progress, so far; 50 sq. ft. of B-quiet ultimate. Adding another 50 Alpine CDA-9886 (2) Zapco DC 350.2 amps w/ int. processor (1) REF 500.1 mono amp Posts: 42 | From: Seattle | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Andy Jones: Also, I can't think of a single car that the door speaker location to kick panel is going to be 3 feet. that is huge in the confines of a car. Maybe in a cargo van that would be the case, but nothing else would. That rule makes no sense to me and absolutely isn't true.
Andy, I pasted the guys thread, on kick vs door locations, here. can you take a look and tell me what you think?
Jamesws
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Work in progress, so far; 50 sq. ft. of B-quiet ultimate. Adding another 50 Alpine CDA-9886 (2) Zapco DC 350.2 amps w/ int. processor (1) REF 500.1 mono amp Posts: 42 | From: Seattle | Registered: Mar 2009
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oh man,.i met steve before at adire barbi years ago i think.never got a chance to use a koda,darno!i still disagree.i didnt have to do what he said at all.flat e.q. basically.completally off axis.but then,im tunning for two,not one.i think the way he worded it you'd never complete the tuning cycle in ultimate class.which i wasnt a member,lol.that would be luck.lol.i just tune that way.but then im no brainiac either.just some 4th grade serfer freak from rat city.i think the pathlengths are alot better.what was it,11-15 inch difference.im willing to try if you are.soon as we get by this phase........................
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posted
6 inch difference. doors..15 kicks..11.....6 inches closer in kicks. I got 12 sq. ft. left of B-quiet, will finish roof in a bit, 2 layers on roof, yeeha, I ordered another 50sqft. last pm. For doors and front floor. Hey I bought some 1/2 bead backer and put it in the gaps on roof before I layered, fit nice and tight, got some for between door skin and brace too
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Work in progress, so far; 50 sq. ft. of B-quiet ultimate. Adding another 50 Alpine CDA-9886 (2) Zapco DC 350.2 amps w/ int. processor (1) REF 500.1 mono amp Posts: 42 | From: Seattle | Registered: Mar 2009
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you have way more than a 6" differnce in your path lenght from side to side using kicks.kinda confused.lol.i thought 11"+ was the pathlength differnce now.wasnt the difference 20 something using door holes doors.totally unusable for imaging properly.11 is much better but is not optimum either.probably more than enough to make us pull your hair out though.your backs kinda against a wall in that respect without seriouse mods..tonal accuracy is another story,if you choose to compete.score's are devided up between different aspects of your system.kinda a give and take deal at times,lol.or will we be lucky? sounds like your keepin busy,woot!
-------------------- Mob Rules,78 IQ will school termpro,lol. Life is more than spec's on a sheet of paper! Better to live on your feet, Than die on your knees why does termpro make me expose their facist ways? the corporation> http://www.guba.com/watch/3000028640 thats why!
posted
I've read that a couple of times. Wow. I can tell you without a doubt--it's wrong. I've had speakers in my doors and in my kicks---there is a difference. I can also hear a .1ms change in time alignment. I know this because I often make tiny changes like that.
Going from the doors to the kicks in my f150 made all the difference in the world. But to do that I also cut a hole through the floor. You can't just build some tiny sealed enclosure in the floor and expect to have SQ. You need to make sure they have enough airspace.
I know you mentioned cutting the door panel--I would not do that unless you have a very high level of fabrication skills and can make it look very good. Otherwise you will either be spending A LOT of money when you get rid of the truck to replace the panels, or you will have lowered the value of your truck by making it look like ass.
The doors in that truck are a horrendous place to have a speaker. I would avoid it at all costs.
posted
Thanks Andy . I do want to put mids in the kicks. I was looking and it seems they could be vented out the square hole, probably enlarge and make a plate over it was my initial idea. if I get mids that have a high total Q, say .6 and vented them out, do you think that would work. Did u cut a hole in the floor for air space or installation? Thanks again,
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Work in progress, so far; 50 sq. ft. of B-quiet ultimate. Adding another 50 Alpine CDA-9886 (2) Zapco DC 350.2 amps w/ int. processor (1) REF 500.1 mono amp Posts: 42 | From: Seattle | Registered: Mar 2009
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You are going to have to do a lot of work higher up on the kickpanel to vent through that small square hole.
The wire for the door goes through there--so you have an air leak there that needs to be fixed. Above that is some thin metal that resonantes quite badly---you are going to have to fix that.
it is doable, but it is more than just screwing a baffle to the metal and calling it a day.
I cut a 4" hole through the floor. That works nicely for me.
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