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Anyone out there have experience with these two midbass/midranges? I'm looking at pairing one of the two up with some XT25's in my new car.
The Morel is certainly cheaper AND comes in a 4ohm version. Volume displacement comes out pretty close either way, with a slight advantage going to the ScanSpeaks I believe. Midbass response looks pretty good both ways.
I am planning on a HP x-over in the low-mid 60Hz range, and a LP in the low-mid 2kHz range, though I wouldn't mind going higher if the mid can play cleanly up that high.
Other ideas would be greatly appreciated as well...there's been a lot of talk of the RE series mids, that's crossed my mind as well.
Thanks, Ash
-------------------- ****************************** ****************************** Posts: 1136 | From: Los Angeles, CA | Registered: Aug 2001
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Illusion ND-804 would be another option I could consider. The midbass/midrange in question would be using the door as an "enclosure" with the door being sealed well...no interaction between the space behind the speaker and the front of the speaker.
Thanks again, Ash
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The MW is a stellar midbass and will play that high with some eq-ing....I ran it to 3k with no problems, Its not a huge ouput speaker, but neither is the rev. No experience with the Scan, but I really enjoyed the Morel, gotta love 3" coils.
Posts: 2276 | From: East | Registered: Jan 2003
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Scan would kill the Morel in midbass. I like the Morels...but the Scans, well, they are on another level IMO.
-------------------- Team Image Dynamics/Werewolf Team Second Skin Audio Sick Bastard Audio SQ Who feels it knows it Posts: 8009 | From: Charlotte,NC USA | Registered: May 1999
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BTW- the Rev 7 comes in a 4 ohm version as well...18W/4531G00 is the model number.
-------------------- Team Image Dynamics/Werewolf Team Second Skin Audio Sick Bastard Audio SQ Who feels it knows it Posts: 8009 | From: Charlotte,NC USA | Registered: May 1999
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Oh, thats a load off about the 4ohm version of the Rev...I have been looking at PartsExpress and didn't see that version.
I did a quick check of the volume displacement of the two drivers and they come out really close. The ND-8, on the other hand, I can't seem to find specs for. Solen.ca lists their xmax as +/- 12mm, which doesn't sound right to me. JC2 would probbaly know, right?
Thanks for the input guys, Ash
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I wouldn't put too much stock into the VD, it doesn't always play out the way you think it will.
Posts: 2276 | From: East | Registered: Jan 2003
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The Illusions would have the least amount of midbass out of those three speakers...speaking from having owned them and having played with the Scans. Parts Express doesn't have the 4 ohm drivers, Madisound and Solen would though. The 4 ohm versions have less of the coating on the cones, which some say makes them sound better...dunno, haven't heard the coated cones yet.
I think the Seas Excel/Lotus has a better midrange, but the midbass on the Scans is awesome...and the midrange is a nice, warm, dark sound. Very fine speakers indeed.
-------------------- Team Image Dynamics/Werewolf Team Second Skin Audio Sick Bastard Audio SQ Who feels it knows it Posts: 8009 | From: Charlotte,NC USA | Registered: May 1999
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I have some scan 5 1/4" revelators in a .2 cubic enclosure right now and they will shake your pants legs on drum hits. AWESOME midbass. I would imagine the 7's with more cone area would be even better.
Incredible speakers.
I've never personally played with the Morels or Illusions.
posted
How would the Scan compare to something like the DLS Iridium 8's in a strictly midbass role? Do the scan speaks work well in an IB door install or do they need an enclouser for strong midbass?
Posts: 195 | From: Sterling Heights, Michigan | Registered: Jul 2002
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Interesting...I would have thought that in the case that all of the sound is coming from the driver itself and not a driver/port combination, the Vd would be very important...
Well, It sounds more and more like I can't go wrong with the Scans...aside from price. But hey, I guess you get what you pay for.
I appreciate the input guys, I havn't had experience with any of these drivers and I appreciate input frokm people who have.
Now, if I go with the Scans....I wonder if an AP would work...hmmmmm,
Ash
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quote:Originally posted by Ash: Interesting...I would have thought that in the case that all of the sound is coming from the driver itself and not a driver/port combination, the Vd would be very important...
Specs can be misleading, its good to know what you are getting into, but you can't read how a speaker will perform solely on the specs, many would surprise you, sounds like the scans are a good bet.
Posts: 2276 | From: East | Registered: Jan 2003
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Well, I'm in the process of building up the doors and making the proper adaptor plates I need, and once thats done the amp rack and sub enclosure are next. THEN I'll be ordering the Scans it looks like.
Now, where do ya'll think would be a good place to cross over the xt25's and the Rev.s? I have always thought it is better to move the crossover point in a 2-way design above 3kHz, trying to keep any kind of crossover distortion out of the bulk of the human voice range.
I'm using 24dB/octave active crossovers BTW. Think this should be another thread?
Ash
-------------------- ****************************** ****************************** Posts: 1136 | From: Los Angeles, CA | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Ash: Interesting...I would have thought that in the case that all of the sound is coming from the driver itself and not a driver/port combination, the Vd would be very important...
There is no doubt that realized volume displacement is proportional to SPL. However, there is always distortion to figure into the question. I think a major reason why the Revs are so good in the bass is that their distortion is incredibly low down there as opposed to other comparable midwoofers- I've seen some tests that show them at 1-2% THD where other woofers of the same diameter and nearly the same rated xmax are up well over 20%!! Granted THD is a bit misleading as a metric for end sound quality, but in this instance it can clearly show a superior design. Xmax is a good spec, but distortion at a given volume displacement is much more revealing.
As far as crossover goes, I wouldn't run the xts below 2.5k, and 3k is a bit safer yet. I'd also be a bit weary of running a crossover much above 3k, especially if one side is going to be off-axis much, such as the near side door mounted midbass will be. Even at 3k, it'll be down quite a bit. If the tweets are near the woofers, I'd prob cross the set 2.5-3k, and if the tweets are in a different location, experiment.
Posts: 3961 | From: State College, PA | Registered: Sep 2000
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The Revs need an enclosure to really get down...though my buddy Ron Buffington uses them sort of IB in his BMW (sounds good, he beat Gary Biggs at SVR with them in).
I have some of the DLS Irridium 8s at the house- which are awefully similar to the Morels, and they don't exactly have a ton of displacement. So, what the Scans lack in cone area, they will make up for in excursion compared to the Morels.
I'd take the Scans and save for some Ring Revelator tweeters...oh, what a nice combo that is.
-------------------- Team Image Dynamics/Werewolf Team Second Skin Audio Sick Bastard Audio SQ Who feels it knows it Posts: 8009 | From: Charlotte,NC USA | Registered: May 1999
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Haven't heard the the Vifas...but the Scans are awesome.
-------------------- Team Image Dynamics/Werewolf Team Second Skin Audio Sick Bastard Audio SQ Who feels it knows it Posts: 8009 | From: Charlotte,NC USA | Registered: May 1999
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Well, for those interested, I think I've found my midbass. I'm going to try using the Scan-Speak 21W/8555-00 as a midbass in my doors, sealed up as much as possible. My idea is to add about 10g. of mass to the moving assembly. This should raise the Qtc enough to make the driver work pretty well in this install, as well as lowering the Fs. I re-computed the T/S params with 10g. of mass added and used WinISD to simulate the install with a fairly random, very large volume closed box, and the response looks pretty good. There's a very slight roll-off starting about 100Hz, but its very very slow. -3dB is well below 65Hz, which is where I'm planning on crossing them over.
Let me know what ya'll think. It should be an interesting experiment if nothing else.
Ash
-------------------- ****************************** ****************************** Posts: 1136 | From: Los Angeles, CA | Registered: Aug 2001
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I have the 7" 8 ohm revs in my car, and have the 21W8555 sitting in a box ready for whenever I get the home speakers built. The 8555 is better as a midbass IMO, but isn't even in the same league as the rev when it comes to midrange. I've used the rev in my car with just them and my tweets crossed at 3k and the midrange was great, not the best I've heard, but for the midbass the revs have I wasn't expecting much for the midrange. The 8555 on the other hand is a better woofer, but there is no way I would run them with only a tweeter, especially if you are adding mass to the cone. Also like someone mentioned the XT25s shouldn't be run too low. They have a low Fs and low frequency response but the distorion gets nasty below 3k. I got some when they first came out and everyone said that you could use a 1.5-2k crossover, I tried that and wanted to throw the things away. But when used with a crossover around 3k they sound pretty good, the off axis isn't the best for some applications, but if you don't need that, they'll be a good tweeter.
Posts: 2575 | From: GA | Registered: May 1999
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Thanks a lot for the post Jc2. I definitely agree with what you say about not running the 8555 into the midrange area...I'm going to be low-passing it at probably 200Hz, 24dB per octave.
I keep changing my mind about my front stage...I ahve a set of ID CD-2 COMP's sitting here. If I use those, I'll be putting the 8555's in the doors running 200-below, and a mid in the kickpanel probably.
The other option is to put a component set in the KP's. I'm thinking of ID's, Cantons, or a custom set.
But in any case, the 8555's won't be anywhere near the midrange region.
I've used the xt25's in a home tower, playing from 3.3kHz and up...I thought they sounded GREAT. I can't say that I've taken them any lower than 3.3KHz though.
Later, Ash
-------------------- ****************************** ****************************** Posts: 1136 | From: Los Angeles, CA | Registered: Aug 2001
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You mentioned that the Vifa Xt25's might not be the best for off axis use. (well crap!) I have a set that I WAS going to use in and F-150 reg. cab install. With the tweeters on the A-pillars, firing across the dash, just above the gauges hump level.
In your opinion, would this be acceptible?
(System (have all the stuff just aint installed it yet.))
{Sony C910 CD player, LP XO3 x-over, Kicker Zr240 running tweeters, Kicker Zr360 running 2 VR8's ported subs, Kicker Zr600 on Illusion ND8's mid-bass/mid-range. {special thanks to winslow for the illusions! NOW HE TELLS ME THEY STINK AS A MID BASS!) (HE!HE!HE!) (J/K Bro!)
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Thanks.
-------------------- Thunder. aka: "Jimmy Walker" TIPS Inc. (601-932-8477) Independant Enclosure Fabricator Old School...Since '86. Because Size Does MATTER! "Experience is something that you aquire, Right after you need it..." Posts: 541 | From: Pearl, MS | Registered: May 1999
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Having heard the ID's in a number of installs now you would be a fool not to go with the Canton's if you are going with a radiating speaker setup (non-horn)
I will say though, the cantons will not hang with the ID's from 200 down, but if you have a way around that don't even contemplate the chameleons.
Posts: 2276 | From: East | Registered: Jan 2003
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Well, I guess that about lays it out then! Thanks for the advice, I've heard a LOT of good things baout Canton, but I've not actually heard them yet. I did inquire about prices awhile back (I can't remember the guy's name or email addy) and was pleasently suprised.
I'm looking to run whatever's in the kicks from 200Hz-up, and the 8's in the doors from 200 down, so I'm not worried about midbass from whatever component set I go with.
Thanks, Ash
-------------------- ****************************** ****************************** Posts: 1136 | From: Los Angeles, CA | Registered: Aug 2001
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I would not recommend the XT25s in that application, for a pillar tweets you need something with very good off axis response and I don't think the Vifas are good enough there. A regular dome tweeter I think would be much more suited to that, maybe a Hiquphon OWII for a reasonably priced large format home tweeter.
Posts: 2575 | From: GA | Registered: May 1999
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Be careful with the XT25s if you are running big power or 12dB slopes keep the x/o towards 3k.
One of my cusomters kept frying half the coil, not the top or bottom half, but the left or right half!
The best I can figure is that he kept driving it so hard that it jumped half the coil out of the gap.
The remarkable thing is that several times I could re-assemble the tweeter and it played fine.
I'm sure with sensible listening you would never have this problem as this customer seems to be able to kill just about anything.
In one month he cooked a pair of 3515s, then 9515s, He has around 5-6kW, I really don't think he understands what clipping is.
The only thing he can't kill is his four DD 6.5s, even though they're powered by a Boston GT28 at 2 ohm. He's even run them full range when he had no subs.
Back on topic....I use the XT25s in my home cinema, I think they are incredible for the money.
Phil
-------------------- The loudest man down under Posts: 215 | From: Gold Coast, Australia | Registered: Oct 2001
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