posted
Dukk, I know all about your theory on amps. But, lets look in to it one more time, do you think that there is no way to tell the difference of, let’s say, RF 360a2, and an a/d/a P2110? They are both rated with the same amount of power, in fact, the a/d/a has 10 watts less then the RF. What do you think?
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Posts: 381 | From: Silicon ValleyR A N G E R O V I N G ! | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Nope. You dudes are wrong. Been tested myself (along with about a hundred other car audio guys) and nobody could tell the difference between a small transistor amp and a nice big well regarded brand name amp over 40% of the time. And that 40% wasn't even consistent. Richard Clark has freely given this test to THOUSANDS and NOBODY has ever been able to tell consistently. This includes MANY industry icons and big competitors. We argue about this every year dudes. No offence, feel free to have your opinions, even if nobody else who has ever been tested can tell....
As long as the amps in question are gain matched and kept from clipping, you can NOT tell. The fun starts in the real world when EVERYBODY clips their stuff to some degree or operates their amps in some other rude manner. It's true, but do NOT believe me. Go see Richy and take the test. He's got $10G for the first one who is successful. That should pay for the trip...
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posted
If what you say is true, then why all the different brands, prices, and class amps? Shouldn’t every thing be the same price? Please explain why one amp, like McIntosh is so expensive, and another, like RF, so cheap? I can’t wait to hear this one!!
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[This message has been edited by Mousavi (edited 04-06-2000).]
Posts: 381 | From: Silicon ValleyR A N G E R O V I N G ! | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Mostly because people will pay the price. Amps are priced based on the r&d that goes into them, the actual parts need to build the circuit, the heatsink (the VERY most expensive part of ANY amp) and then, MARKETING! Yep, you pay for that too. I have recently changed my thoughts on amplifiers. A friend of mine and myself put ourselves to the test at his shop, and without clipping, we couldn't tell the differnce between head power and his largest Nak amp. I was dumbfounded myself. So, since then, I've been advocating POWER instead of name brand. Get a well known brand, with tons 0 watts, and go have yourself a nice day. Even the Audison's and Mc's of the world sound only as good as your head unit, without being clipped! Only difference is where they start clipping.
Did I just say all that????
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STILL waiting to hear a GOOD pair of HLCD's!!
Use your ears to judge components, NOT your wallet! K.I.S.S.
posted
Finally some reason. All of the things APhyle says are true. Plus, think about this; Lets say 2 companies want a new amp out there. Both companies employ the same number of people for the same amount of time for R & D work. Next, we will assume the amps are very similar in configuration and output so the parts cost is close. Now, Company A projects to sell 100,000 units a year (they can estimate this based on how many of each other amp they sell in a year) while Company B projects 10,000 units a year. If both companies have, oh, a quarter million in R&D in their amp. Company A has to amortize $2.50 a unit to recover, while Company B has to amortize $25 a unit. At the manufacturing level this is a HUGE difference - in fact it could make a $200 difference in the retail price or more!
To take your examples of Mac and RF. RF manufactures over 25,000 amps a MONTH, while I doubt Mac sells that a year (BIG doubt). Who has the lower overhead / unit???
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posted
Thank you Dukk. I went to a friend of mine’s store and compared the MC222, with the 100a2, and I am pleased to say that as always, Lord Dukk is right!!! I took the test 20 times and failed 13 of them! How is it that, not every one here knows this? I think we all can learn a lot from just trusting our ears!
So tell me now, keeping in mind that brands do not matter, what would YOU use to power 2 13” Utopias for maximum SQ?
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Posts: 381 | From: Silicon ValleyR A N G E R O V I N G ! | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
That is definitely not correct RWAudio,even if all amps sounded exactly the same, people will not always buy the cheapest. There are many other factors that will influence your choice. Things such as reliability, appearance, specifications, features, build quality. etc,etc,etc, to name a few.
bluedog
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Posts: 9 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Your right Blue Dog, people will indeed buy they're personal choice on amplifiers. I dont mind spending a little more for a company that stands behind it's product, or a product that doesn't need a company to stand behind it because it doesn't break!
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STILL waiting to hear a GOOD pair of HLCD's!!
Use your ears to judge components, NOT your wallet! K.I.S.S.
posted
I can't hear the diff between any two amps. I can here the difference between many though. And I do trust my own ears. I've got my ears trained for troubleshooting. You might think "bull#$%^" but I can here idle currents set low, instabilities in the power supplies as high as 100khz (verified by two astonished techs and a business owner), and many distortion abnormalities. I've been able to for years. If you have accurate drivers and an awesome signal source I can tell the difference between a very high line amps and most mids and any low line jobby. I've even nicked picked the design on my own amps for SQ.
Sorry to disagree with so many of you fine and knowledgable posters whom I do consider to be friends I do know I'm an anomoly though.
posted
I would have to agree in some cases not being able to tell the difference between amps at low power.. BUT you are all testing them at what half power???? sure your test works but name anyone on here that doesn't push the limits of the amp even if it's only once in awhile?? so the distortion characteristics ARE very important which is a component in the sound quality for the everyday person. (sure there are probably people with very large amps that don't have to push them hard to get loud, but not everyone does)
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Posts: 736 | From: Calgary AB | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
See, now that's what I'm saying. EVERYBODY runs the snot out of their amps - and this is where we hear the differences. I wouldn't say for one second to go buy a 50x2RMS Pyramid instead of a Punch120a2 just cuz they have the same power. Chances are I'm going to run the amp at or below 2ohms, and it's gonna get beat on a bit. The Pyramid will crap out and die.
Mousavi - I think that people immediately say their amp sounds better when asked. Chances are that they used to have a different amp and this one has either more power or is coping in their system better than the last one, ala the better sound. Not really cuz the new amp is a better sounding amp but more that it makes their car sound better.
I buy an amp based on power, features, durability, styling, and price. Then I get an RF and call it a day...
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posted
Hey I think ZAPCO ZAPCO ZAPCO ZAPCO it is very wel built and i have never had problems with one of their amps yet. I like the fact that they are really ballsy. Like i put their STudio 50 on our alpine board and power a single zr 12 with oit and then had the mrvt757 alpine amp on it and the zapco soudned way cleaner. It soudns even cleaner than phoenix ZX which i dont really find impressive. see ya oh yeah i sell all 3
posted
wait a minute...power instead of name brand.....Power Acoustik will rule the world.....uh oh...... *Snot quitely scuttels off to buy that 2200 watt PA Apache for $220 with the realization that people will laugh at him no longer*
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Posts: 1082 | From: Former BS Moderator <IMG SRC= | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
If you can get that Apache to deliver a reasonable amount of power without clipping hard or becoming very non-linear, go for it! Better yet - the ones with the neon inside...
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posted
Well ok now. Lets think about this. If every amp is the same, the you said that you couldnt compare a Pyramid to a RF because the Pyramid would crap out at 2ohm mono. Well, since the original question was about a component set, and all of theirs are 4ohm, then you say that a 25x2 Pyramid that sells at our flea market for $59 is no different than a Pure Class A Monolithic 25x2 that retails for $649? And I'm talkin gains all the way down. They are gonna sound exactly the same? Yeah right.
My top amp choices, not in any order. Zapco, Brax, LP, Monolithic, Audison, Genesis, ODR, McIntosh.
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Posts: 131 | From: Frankfort, KY | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
well...SQ...hum, this may be a little off key with the car audio. but my TRUE love for SQ will most likely always rest with home audio. with the amps, subs and speakers being hand made and impedance matched as near to perfect as can be while the power is taken straight from the primary circiut breaker of the house(for critical listening A/C voltage is shut down to the rest of the entire house).all source components run from battery power and all cables pure litz and hand braided. sorry guys but i have been spoiled at the top end of home SQ and though i enjoy my personal vehicle and also the efforts and good hard work of others vehicle to obtain what a hand built top of the line home system can do...and when i think that something that i have built myself or another has built for car audio is approaching the kind of SQ that i am talking about....all i have to do is listen to the home systems that i mentioned above and i will find myself yet discussed again at mainly my own attempts in car audio SQ. though these area's of SQ are related i try to stay grounded and remember that they are one completely different from the other in so many obvious ways.... but yet again i will push to make continued improvments as will most of the rest here so maybe someday we all will get closer to what i am speaking of.....good luck in all that we attemp to create
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Posts: 122 | From: St.Louis, MO | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
That's the only view I have. Reliability. Amps like MTX I will never buy again. My friend runs a punch 500a2 at 2ohms and it never shuts down and hasn't burnt up as a daily driver for about 6 months now. I get an mtx2300 run it for 3 days at 2ohms and it burns. May have been my fault considering I knew that mtx had no protection or the ability to shut down when overheating. But, when I buy an amp now, I make sure it is of a good quality company and that I have received multiple opinions of those who have used the amps.
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Posts: 109 | From: Plymouth, PA | Registered: Nov 1999
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posted
Now, I don;t run MTX but I think they make an okay product. The 2300 seems especially popular. The problem was that it doesn't like sub-4 ohm mono loads. If you kept it at 4 mono, your esperience may have been more positive. This is where I start talking about how you should buy an amp for it's power, reliability and features. Obviously, one of the criteria your particular woofer amp has to have is 1 ohm operation...
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posted
I think the 2300 is especially popular because of the big endorsement it was given by clark and navone ( i think) when it was featured repeatedly in their issue with the PS-907 (forgot which one).
ShadowStar
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Posts: 2579 | From: Somewhere In the Northeast | Registered: May 1999
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