posted
But it seems like everyone is very against the unlimited amps ruling (although it seems almost everyone pushed for it earlier in the year), sounds like the best bet is to just leave it be for now.
-------------------- Shattered and Broken. Now Recovering. Posts: 1226 | From: Mississauga, ON, Canada | Registered: Feb 2002
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-------------------- Ben ----- www.EastCoastChoons.co.uk UK SS 1-2 NW Record Holder Team UK - Team ECC - Team RE - Team DD Posts: 2956 | From: Deepest Darkest Norfolk | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Wayne Harris: In the examples, please use the number of conductors.
For example, in Street A...
1 each Brand X (internally bridged) produces X Watts into 2 conductors (1 channel) and costs X dollars.
2 each Brand X monoblock amps are bridged together and they produce X Watts and cost X dollars.
Many of the large, expensive, monster amps are already internally bridged. You cannot bridge them again externally and still meet the conductor limit. Generally, it is much less expensive to bridge 2 smaller amps than to use a single monster amp. Please correct me if I am wrong.
You are correct...generally it is cheaper to bridge 2 smaller amps than to run 1 larger amp.
quote:Originally posted by Wayne Harris: Assume you want to be competitive at the National or International level.
What is less expensive in the Street Division ...
Limit Amp Quantity or Unlimited Amp Quantity?
The conductor limit and battery limit will remain the same.
Please explain and include an example, with pricing info if possible.
Thanks for helping me out here.
like take this....
2 2500d's in street b = XXX dollors into 2 4 conducters = about 2900 watts per amp(around .5ohm) 4 1200d's in street b = xxx dollors into 2 4 conducters = about 2800 per set of amps( 1 ohm straped)
both are about the same dollor wise.
most likly will not make top 8 with either above^^ at finals (i proved this at last finals)
now take this...(these are used as 2 non strapple amps) 2 JBL/crowns = xxxxxxxxx$ (lol) 4 conducters = about 6,000 watts per amp 2 2500d's = xxx$ into 4 conducters = about 2900 watts per amp
who do you think is going to win in the above power?
then you have this....(used as strapabble amps)
4 1200d's = xxx$ = 4 conductors = about 2800 watts 2 4kw's + xxxxxx$ i dont know alot about this amp other than its already bridged and make alot of power and cost alot.
now with the above power i would say the 2 4kw's would walk on the 4 1200d's
now every amp i listed above would be allowed to be used as listed in street b (just the class i know well) and you think its cheaper and you have a chance with the new rules?
this is just my opion that if the rules get changed you will see a ton of monster amps in street and if they dont get changed to unlimted you will see less monstr amps in street.
as it seems now its who has the biggest bank account not who works the hardest for it.
to give a fighting chance to the lil guys lets keep the amp limit please as it is.
Just to clear things up. A Zapco 4KW is 2 9.0's sitting on top of each other They have no advantage other than quality. 4KW = 4conductors
You used 2 4KW vs 4 1000d's as a comparison, it doesn't really work well as a comparison because basically it is 4 9.0 vs 4 1000d.
quote:Originally posted by Kermit the Frog: One issue I have with most of the discussion, is the fixation on what is required to win at National and International.
dB Dragracing is not about accomodating a select number of people who want to win at National and international, It is about promoting autosound competition and having fun.
I can see where Wanye is coming from, He is look more to the masses, whereas most of the conversation is about a select few, who think dB Dragracing should revolve around them.
At the end of the day the people who win are the ones who are using the big overpriced amp, which are not even readily available to the average joe, as what stores actually want to stock them, Alot of the competitors in question don't actually pay that much for them anyways.
This forum needs to loss the ME ME ME mentality and look at it from the prospective of the average joe and his mates trying to have fun.
The average joe does not have multiple KW amps, So why should they be discriminated against when a guy and his mates want to pool their resources and put together a car with several 1kw type amps which is pritty much what most averages joes have.
Going to unlimited amps will open it up abit more for the average joe at the local competition level, which is where the heart of dB dragracing is. Rather than just being the dominated by the guy who has the money to buy a multiple KW amp, that is not every practical in daily driving in the car anyways.
Let the local boys have their fun putting there cars together, competing and having fun with there begged and borrowed setups.
At the end of the day if you want to be competitive at the National and International level as with any thing you need money and the hookups with the suppliers, that is the way it has always generally been. To be at the top of any sport at the international level is an expensive exersize, so just deal with it.
The idea in part of having National and International level competition is to the promote the sport, which is what it should be doing. The rules should be written for the masses, rather than a select few who want to be the best and seem to think that the sport should revolve around them, just because they are at the top.
The average Joe local competitor can now enjoy a cheaper version of dbdrag in ministreet, and in this post Wayne asked that this be thought of in terms of a national/international level.
I say leave rules as is, with clarifications and updates as to the 2 amps in one case rule, and maybe the wall test (in terms of the string and the windows, why not adopt an universal height?) And if for no other reasons, at least leave the basic rule setup as is for a little conformity, keeping the rules the same for 2 years, so at least some competitors from last season dont have to change their whole stereo setup.
-------------------- Dave Yearick Jr. -- '03 Ford Expedition FX4 Kicker SS 5.25 Comp's Front Kicker SSMB8 Midbass Front Kicker RS 5.25 Comp's Rear Kicker ZX650.4 & HK398 Hifonics Goliath Sub Amp 2 Fi BTL 18"s My Explorer Posts: 601 | From: State College, PA | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I do like the idea of being able to run a pair of 1200.1s vs a D2 or 9.0 with te 2 conductor rule but like posted before the Crown having 2 conductors would still be better.....i do however see the unlimited amp rule leveling the playing feild at the smaller events but not at the 2 and 3x ones....
-------------------- Team TAZM Team Gates Exotic Dreamz Car Club Team Cartunes
posted
First, why are we trying to change something that really isn't broken. I agree with Justin, Jeff Brown, and everyone else who thinks this is a really bad idea. All this will do is force companies to make their amps strapable and double the already insane amount of power being used in street cars. For example, 9.0s can be made strapable. I have just purchased a new explorer which is just as loud as my crx but has twice room. I will totally dominate crxs because I have the money and room to fit 8 9.0s which I already have. Do I want to do this. Absolutely not. How many people will want to compete against that let alone spend the over 12000 dollars it will cost to finance such a thing. They will simply go away.
Now look at this, yes it would be cheaper to buy 4 1000ds rather than 2 9.0s. But what about 4 T3000s vs 2 9.0s or 2000ds. Its double the cost and its not like the power level is being evened out, its actually being doubled while making the classes even more expensive which is a huge complaint. All this unlimited amp rule would do is make the people that have access to absurd amounts of equipment even farther ahead of those that can't.
So a crown won street A, so what. There are several amps out this year that will compete with a crown and cost much less. Also as stated, the size of a crown doesn't allow most vehicles to even utilize it, which levels the playing field that everyone is always complaining is so skewed towards Pandas and CRXs.
This would be a terrible move in my opinion and will just make things worse. Do I have the answer no, its never going to be perfect. I will say that I think the rules we have in place are as good as it gets for now and we should leave them alone.
-------------------- KCG Team Maxxsonics Posts: 1425 | From: Centralia, IL | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Wayne Harris: ...Many of the large, expensive, monster amps are already internally bridged. You cannot bridge them again externally and still meet the conductor limit.....
It's going to happen. The most serious competitor's are not simple people. These are folks who know an electron.
Two conductors per woofer does not mean anything.
It's going to destroy street by the end of the season.
My 0.02 cents.
-------------------- Get loud daily... not burping. From Finals 2005:
quote: It's World Finals. A certified event. A 4x scoring event. It's the "pinnacle" of the "sport".
If I showed up to Game 7 of the World Series and was found to have a Corked Bat in pre game warm-ups, what would happen to me? Even if I said that I 'didnt see it in the rulebook, my bad'.
From Finals 2004:
quote:Originally posted by dBSteve: Everybody in the top 8 in every class bent the rules.
posted
If we are going to lift the amp limit the only smart way to do it would be to do away with the conductor rule, all the conductor rule will do is make it so you have to use strapable amps. If the battery can only support so much power, who cares about how many amps someone has. Two T3000s or 2 9.0s or 2 2000ds is all the same thing but going by the conductor rule you have to use 2 T3000s. More than 4 won't work off 1 bat so it would be useless to try. My 2 cents.
-------------------- KCG Team Maxxsonics Posts: 1425 | From: Centralia, IL | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Points taken on the number of amps etc getting out of hand, But the power will ultimately be limited by the battery.
Interms of the battery size I would be in favour of limiting its size further, to reduce the number of amps that can be used effectively.
600 cubic inches is plenty, most average batteries people would put into audio setups are not bigger than that, It is only a few specialist and commercial batterys that are any bigger.
A standard optima is smaller than 600 cubic inchs and most super heavy duty automotive and most large 4x4 batteries that the average joe would easily fit in a standard car are not any bigger than 600 cubic inches.
Its a compromise I guess, If you are going to go unlimited, it is best to try and limit the amount of power further and the easiest way to do that is with the battery size.
Posts: 62 | From: some where under the rainbow | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I don't have a problem leaving things as they are, but we must find a way to identify single amps that are, in reality, multiple amps. Or, we could just forget about this altogether and just count heatsinks.
-------------------- "Keep it Loud and Make me Proud!"
posted
There is no clear way of differentiating between single and multiple amps in a heatsink that manufacturers will not design amps such as to circumvent those guidelines, At the end of the day most big class amps these day are made up of mutliple power supplies and multiple output stages, The mojo for example has 4 seperately driven output stages (run in a parallel and seried configuration) and 2 power supplies, Is it 1 amp with 1 channel? or is it 2 1channel amps on the same board? or is it 2 2 channel amps on the same board.
Same thing with the new JBL amps, What is the difference between that and the Collosis XXX thingy amp, The arrangement of the components on the PCB and the fact they are on one PCB, vs Multiple.
The problem with counting heat sinks it that before long you will have 2 3000d's board in one heat sink.
Make it unlimited and reduce the battery size.
[ 01-05-2005, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: Kermit the Frog ]
Posts: 62 | From: some where under the rainbow | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I agree Wayne, could we somehow form a commitee as was suggested in another post? If an amp is in question, open it up, go over it, and decide. Yes there are several things wrong with this approach but I think the if it is in place it will deter companies from making the costly mistake of enginnering such an amp and or catch them when they do. Now obviously some who may buy an amp would be upset if they got caught, well I would have to say they should be mad at the company and not buy their product anymore, you know what they say about 1 angry customer turning into 10. This alone will make them think twice.
-------------------- KCG Team Maxxsonics Posts: 1425 | From: Centralia, IL | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
If it is going to come to a comitee it is going to come down to PCB layout etc I am an engineer for a car audio manufacturer and can tell you for a fact that every 2kw+ amp I have seen come out of korea is based on what would constitute multiple amps from a topology design prospective, with the power supply PWM drive and and preamp stages being common etc.
It would be easy if design wise the big amps these days were just 1 big amp, but the sad fact of it is, it is going to be hard to regulate against multiple amps in one heat sink, when most large class D amps these days are infact multiple amps ( interms of design topology) in one heatsink
Posts: 62 | From: some where under the rainbow | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Team_DD_Peter: Most people are talking about 2 smaller strappable amps against one big amp . What about 2 big strappable amps against 1 big amp .
Lets say a crown costs 5000 dollar An ext 6000 costs also 5000 dollar The 2 amps are more or less the same power . The crown can only be run of 2 conductors . Street A
2 ext 6000 can also be run of 2 conductors . Street A . Limit battery . All i found was that last year winner gained 0.1 going to a crown and was enough to win finals . What holds back a street competitor to buy 2 ext 6000 to gain 0.1 over the crown .
Same in street B , 2 crowns , 4 ext 6000 . Who knows maybe 0.2 louder then the crowns .
Street C even worse .
People WILL buy 8 big amps , not 8 1000d or 1200 watt amps .
Agreed. I say look at the results from Both Euro Finals and World Finals... Street Classes are as tight as they've ever been! U wanted equality... you have it... don't change something if it's not broken!
No one amp domiated any street class. The CROWN did get A at World finals... but lets not forget the Zapco was .2 behind! And the American scores in A still are a db behind the Street A scores in Europe. LEAVE STREET ALONE. It's not broke... it's as fair as it's ever been. You will only drive people away with this rule.
You have rules to eliminate the big amps that are "bridged" internally.. Street class is fair already.
x2! how can street be any more competitive? having finals be within .1-.2 max was soooo awesome. not only was very excieting to watch but also for those competing. at usaci finals this year i won by 2 db...that really wasn't very fun. i guess i feel if it isn't broke don't fix it!!! i know you are worried about what methoed will be cheaper to compete but realisticly... who competes because it's cheap? i truely looked forward to the unbelievable compitition and competitiveness of the upcoming season...the way the rules were. my 2 cents --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:Originally posted by Team LOUD ML: I think we need to do powercable rule to street..
Examble,
Street A max 1x50mm/0gauge cable from battery Street B max 2x50mm/0gauge cable from battery Street c max 4x50mm/0gauge cable from battery
i said the very same thing to zimsoundz this very night, good plan!!! would take a few people back to "street" reality!!! which is after all what wayne wants to do, the big cars are at a disadvantage, but then again, how many big cars actually win at the big events!!
-------------------- Posts: 388 | From: derbyshire, england | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
Wayne, Take a look at my idea on my previous post about amp limitations because it's a sound idea and some seasoned street competitors agree with me.
(((One idea is to lower the amp quanity all to gether in the street class so that people will spend more time on box design than money on equipment. For example, Street A and B limited to 1 amplifier and street C limited two 2 amps. With this idea you just cut the cost in half of amplifiers, power wire needed, and in street C the cost of a second battery. I think this would let people work on box design more other than worry if they can afford that second or extra pair of $600+ each for amplifiers just to gain sometimes .5db. This may introduce more people without adding extra classes for street. And if people want the extra power and competition then they can go to super street but change it so that there are no walls allowed.)))
Like you said we must find a way to identify single amps that are, in reality, multiple amps. I don't have an answer to that but you did put a size limit on Batteries last year so insense you could do the same thing to amplifiers to try and limit multiple amplifiers in one case. Just an idea.
Posts: 1325 | From: elgin | Registered: Jan 2003
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2006 Street A - 152.7 Certified 2007 Street C - 154.8 Certified 2007 Street A - 154.4 Certified 2008 Street C - 156.3 Certified 2008 Street B - 156.6 Certified
posted
The only way to do this is power limits. If you put an amp limit then you have huge amps ruling. If you lift the amp limit then you have large strappable amps ruling and even larger single amps. Until there is a power limit, this problem will NEVER be solved. END OF STORY!!!!
Later,
Jason Meyer
-------------------- 2004 SS 1-2NW World Champion 2005 World Finals SS 1-2NW 2nd Place 2006 World Finals SS 1-2NW 3rd Place Team Maxxsonics Member of Broken Silence Competition Team Posts: 194 | From: Sedalia, MO, USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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