posted
"Fast" and "tight" comes from the midbass. The size of the sub has nothing to do with it. If you have a heavy cone, higher inductance, low efficiency woofer that will probably have a lower BL...then you will get sound that isn't "fast" or "tight" if you have the subs crossed too high and proper midbasses that can't integrate properly.
Some larger subs have low inductance, Mms, and a strong motor, and they are every bit as "fast" sounding as 10s.
Every car that Speakerworks built in the 90s had atleast 15s- Harry Kimura's car, the Grand National that RC later bought, Todd Matsubura's T Bird. Every Image Dynamics car except for one that has won Finals has had 15s or 18s- Eric Steven's Sable, Earl Willis's truck and Impala, Shoei Civic, and Mic Wallace's BMW are some of th ose. Then you have Mark Elridge's 4 Runner that always had 15s in it. Earl Zausmmer's old BMW had 13s.
-------------------- Team Image Dynamics/Zapco/Werewolf/JK Lab Team Kinetik Sick Bastard Audio SQ Who feels it knows it Posts: 7993 | From: Charlotte,NC USA | Registered: May 1999
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posted
ok so then how will 4 interior speakers compete with 2 15's? i feel sq is all in someone's opinion but to much bass esciapally coming from the trunk is not good for sq. i just feel a couple high sq 10's and some high sq interioirs will sound best, if you wanted the extra bass add some 8" midbass speakers in the front. but thats just me. i am sure yall been in the sq game alot longer and had heard more products then i have been able to. 2 10 idmax's will hit but still sound good doing it and put some id cham. componets. it will sound good be simple to install and then you can spend the rest on some us amps. since you listen to mostly rock and metal you don't need all that bass.
-------------------- two 15" l7s us amps 2000 Posts: 323 | From: detroit | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Ever been to a concert? Not 2 10s in the PA system.
4 speakers? Why only 4 speakers? And what size speakers?
There are things in SQ that are opinions, but the opinions are only shades of an absolute. There are things that are defined in judging and listening.
I listen to metal...and my SQ car will have 4 15s, 10" midbasses, midranges, and horns. But I like to feel the bass drums when I'm listening to Black Dalihia Murder.
-------------------- Team Image Dynamics/Zapco/Werewolf/JK Lab Team Kinetik Sick Bastard Audio SQ Who feels it knows it Posts: 7993 | From: Charlotte,NC USA | Registered: May 1999
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posted
^Agreed. I listen mostly to southern rock, acoustical performances, country, etc. I still have a 12" sub. If I had the room, I would have 2 15's.
Subwoofer cone area is a good thing. Just make sure you have the right sub, and the right enclosure.
posted
ok fair enough. but concerts and your car is apples and oranges. their both fruit but the don't taste the same. it depends on how extreme your going. it sounds like he just wanted it for daily driving not comps. so just using the spots that came in the car it will be 4 or maybe 6 speakers. thats why 4 speakers. my buddy's jetta had 4 5.25 i belive maybe 6.5. if he's talking adding more speakers then stock hell yeh go for it and the bigger sub(s). did the sq comp. cars with 15's have more then 4 speakers? and concerts have big subs and alot of them but they also have a lot more horns and smaller speakers then bigger ones. i do agree that done abosolutey right and adding extra mids adn highs you can have bigger subs. i was saying for daily driving and the type music the easy(not adding more then what was given) way is smaller subs.my father listens to alot of rock and he rather hear the guiters screaming then the drums. it's all balance add alot hear you have to add alot some where else. thats for each person to decicde. i wasn't trying to p*** any one off, sorry if i did.
-------------------- two 15" l7s us amps 2000 Posts: 323 | From: detroit | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
My midbass is a 7", my midrange a 3" and my tweeter is 19mm. The sub is a 12". I had a 10" last year. The 12 is much better, a 15 would be even better.
It is about balance and not having to push something to the limit to get the balanced sound out of it. I don't listen to anything loud. I'm old. But I would always prefer to have a larger subwoofer.
I have had other vehicles with a 15" subwoofer, 6 1/2Midbass and horn. So 4 speakers and a 15. Until my current system, that system was the best system I ever owned. That subwoofer was the best subwoofer I have EVER owned. That vehicle had the best subbass I have EVER had.
posted
I have a 1" tweet, 4" midrange, 10" midbasses with what hopefully will be an 18" sub.
If you view them as seperate things, such as 'interiors' trying to compete with bass or even overcome it then something is very wrong. Every part of these systems generally works in conjuction with each other. The high end is there to fill in its place at the same level as the low. In other words the amount of bass from a big sub has equally as much highs, so if you were to look at combined, it would be a lot of sound. That isn't how it works by any means but for example sake...
Keep in mind too, you don't have to run everything full tilt either. Instead of having a few small drivers working hard, having many working a very narrow band will make things much more efficient. Take 2 cars accelerating to 60 mph, one is a 3-cyl geo metro and the other is muscle car with a huge v-8. Both are accomplishing the same thing however its a lot easier for one than the other.
Posts: 986 | From: Detroit, MI | Registered: Nov 2004
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RikuY
unregistered
posted
This thread has turned into a great source of information and great exchange.
Thank you to winslow, Andy Jones, and Cinco5 for dropping some knowledge.
posted
Allright then....can you guys give me your opinion on what I should run for sub-bass? Again-it's a 98 Prelude.I've already got the front stage taken care of.Alpine W200 HU,701 processor,Hiquphon tweets and Scanspeak 4.5" Revelators for the kicks,Dynaudio 8" midbass for the doors,and MBQ QSD tweets for the A-pillars. JL 300/4 to power the 4 tweets and two JL 300/2's to power the 2 mids and 2 mid-bass drivers.Again- I'm shooting for top-shelf SQ, but I want to be able to hit HARD.I was planning on two 10W7's off of two 1000/1's mounted facing up in a false floor.Should I be considering a pair of 12W7's or a pair of 13W7's? Wayne McKenzie is going to be doing the install for me and from the little bit I've seen it looks like he's capable of doing some amazing work.Thanks again for everyones input. Martin
-------------------- Too much of everything is just enough. Posts: 391 | From: Boston | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Those 10s would probably be ok for most anything you could through at them. The problem comes when you have someone who gets in your car with some pipe organ music and turns it up wide open, and then tries to get the subs to play those low low notes. Like Andy stated, it takes more effort for the smaller speakers to play that kind of stuff with any volume AND keep their composure. Case in point, the DLS BMW that came to Finals from Thailand. Incredible sounding car that had some balls to it...but you play some pipe organ, and it didn't pull it off as well as it should have. Minor points I know...but people like doing that stuff to cars .
Now, all of that is again relative to how loud your car will play.
If you are wanting JL, I really believe that the W6v2s sound much better than the W7s. However, if you already have the W7s, run with them for a while. 2 12W6v2s would sound awesome IMO. You have an awesome system planned out (though I don't know if you need both sets of tweeters)...roll with it for a while and see how you like it.
-------------------- Team Image Dynamics/Zapco/Werewolf/JK Lab Team Kinetik Sick Bastard Audio SQ Who feels it knows it Posts: 7993 | From: Charlotte,NC USA | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Thanks Winslow. I'm not committed to staying with JL on the subs, but I've been really happy with the 10W7 I've been running for the last 2 years. I realize you may be a little biassed, but do you think the IDMax 12's sound better than the W6v2's? Do they hit as hard? Are there other subs I should be looking at? Martin P.S. I could easily find another use for the 10W7 I have now. I don't want to have the install done and then be looking to upgrade AGAIN 2 months down the road. I'd rather put the install off untill I have all the gear I want.
-------------------- Too much of everything is just enough. Posts: 391 | From: Boston | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
The reason for the 10w7's in you car is because you already have one and adding another seems to be an easy and cheap way out. If you have $$ to burn I would not go with JL at all, rather a few Idmax 12's. IMO they sound better than the w6 and get pretty loud. I've not heard a super sub that competes with it. I have no affiliation with ID. Displacement is important in the midbass and subbass range (In the whole 20-20khz IMHO) The more you have available, the better. Doesn't mean you must have 2 15's to accomplish what you want, the two w'7s will be adequate...its whatever you want to do.
Posts: 2276 | From: East | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Hey EastCoast! A FEW IDmax 12's? 3? If you feel that nothing else competes with the IDmax than that's the route I'm going to go. 3?! What do you and Winslow recomend for power? I'll want 1000 w rms to ea. sub. I'd want the dual 4 ohm model-right? Higher resistance=higher damping factor=higher SQ-right? Many thanks, Martin P.S. I really don't have $ to burn, but I'd rather wait and get the best than settle for less just to get it done quicker.
[ 10-05-2006, 07:16 AM: Message edited by: mjs ]
-------------------- Too much of everything is just enough. Posts: 391 | From: Boston | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Nothing else in the "super sub" category competes with it if you are after SQ. It's transient response is good, its rich, lively, and to me, its natural/real sounding (something I feel the w7 lacks) You want whatever ohm load is going to give you the most power, and not cook your amp, you don't need to worry about damping factor (though in theory you are correct, however you will not hear a difference)
I've heard a number of subs that I like better, but they don't have the output the max has which is something you said you want. 2 Maxes will get it done, 3 would be the nuts. They don't need 1k a peice. 2k in the proper box would push 3 of em plenty. Same is true of 3 12w6's.
You could also ask wayne's opinion. He has installed and listened to many subs. He has the newer series quartz in his car that you may be able to listen to. I don't like them as much as the previous series, but they don't get very loud.
Just understand that the differences we are talking here are going to be subtle. Just because I prefer one sub over another doens't mean its worth it for you to drop another grand. If you don't keep the w7, I would go with whichever sub setup gives you the most displacement for the $ while fulfilling your need for reliability, SQ and output. That could be w6, Idmax, Peerless, dayton etc.
Posts: 2276 | From: East | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Since I've already got JL power for the front stage (2-300/2's and a 300/4) I think I'll stay with the original plan for 2 1000/1's for the low end.I'm pretty sure I'll go with just 2 of the IDMax 12's.I'll discuss it with Wayne, but I expect it'd be quite a bit more difficult to get 3 of'em into my little trunk (98 Prelude).Am I correct in thinking that 2m watts to 2 Max 12's will hit quite a bit harder than the 500 watts and the 10W7 that I'm currently running? Martin
-------------------- Too much of everything is just enough. Posts: 391 | From: Boston | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
One more thing: If I get the dual 4 ohm IDMax when it's hooked up it would actually be a 2 ohm load (running of a single 1000/1) and the dual 2 ohm version would actually be a 1 ohm load - correct? Since these JL amps provide the same power from 1-4 ohms I thought I'd get the dual 4 ohm version.Right? Thanks AGAIN, Martin
-------------------- Too much of everything is just enough. Posts: 391 | From: Boston | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
1.5-4 ohms is what the JLs are rated for. I would get d4s, since you can get 1 to be 2 ohms and 2 to be 4 ohms.
-------------------- Team Image Dynamics/Zapco/Werewolf/JK Lab Team Kinetik Sick Bastard Audio SQ Who feels it knows it Posts: 7993 | From: Charlotte,NC USA | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I spoke to Jim at Image Dynamics about 2 IDMax 12's(we don't have an authorized dealer in this area and there are no authorized dealers on -line).$450 each. I asked what they recomend for power and he said ARC 2300 SE.That will give me 2 X 650 RMS. I told him I was looking at 2 JL 1000/1's that would give me 1000 RMS to each sub and he made comments along the lines that just because it sais it on the box that doesn't mean it's true. I've always been told that JL UNDER rates their amps... What do you guys think? Will I be better off with a single ARC 2300 SE than I would be with a pair of 1000/1'S? What do you guys think would be the BEST option for power for a pair of Max 12's?
-------------------- Too much of everything is just enough. Posts: 391 | From: Boston | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Alright then...Local dealer for ARC Audio sais $1179 each for the 2300 SE. How about 1 for EACH IDMax12? 1300 rms X 1 @ 2 ohms. 1300 X 1 @ 4 ohms. What do you guys think? EastCoast? Winslow? P.S. Unless I'm mistaken the current draw with the 4 ohm configuation would be less than the current draw at 2 ohms so I should set it up at 4 ohms. Correct?
-------------------- Too much of everything is just enough. Posts: 391 | From: Boston | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Thats is expensive for the IDmax's, real expensive. These guys are supposedly authorized dealers. I would call and get the whole scoop before buying.
I wouldn't pay $450 for it though. It's a nice sub, but $900 for 2?!?! A little outrageous.
In that amp range I would look into a Zapco 6.0 Proven amp, with good resale value should you ever need it. You can sell 6.0's like crack on Crenshaw. The Arc's are nice, but not worth what they want for them IMO. Is that a single ended amp?
Again I would do whichever is cheaper, the arc 2 JL1000's, a 6.0 The max is not going to take 1000 watts each anyway, thermally the coil will, but it doesn't need 1k to push it to its limit.
posted
I see what you mean EastCoast. When I'm ready I'll see if I can't hustle up on a pair of the IDMax 12's strait from the source for $700. When I spoke to Jim (head of sales?) at ID he informed me that there are NO authorized dealers on-line anymore.I've been looking at Zapco for a while and if I go that route (which I probably will) I think I'd go with the 9.0. 2200 rms bridged at 4 ohms. My only concern is that the 9.0's damping factor is >250 @ 4 ohms, but the ARC Audio lists theirs at >1000 @ 4 ohms. Does this mean anything to me? Should I even be looking at these particular specs? I heard what you said about not needing 1000 WRMS to each driver , but I'd rather have more available than I'd need than just enough. You've seen my sig-right?
-------------------- Too much of everything is just enough. Posts: 391 | From: Boston | Registered: Oct 2005
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You can go with the 9.0 if you want, the damping factor won't make a difference. Just be aware that 1200 underated watts will push them fine.
Posts: 2276 | From: East | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Ehhh. $450 per idmax? I thought they ran like 220 average. That's making buying a JL at retail sound cheap. Seriously though, why so big on buying directly from ID or an authorized dealer? I can understand for warranty issues or whatever but if you buy it from an unautorized source that has a return policy is it really all that different?
The 9.0 seems a little overkill though.
Posts: 986 | From: Detroit, MI | Registered: Nov 2004
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