quote:Originally posted by spydermann: all4SQ, the car specific tube amps were desinged to cut down on the microphonics, the amplification of vibriations pickup by the tube stage.
Are you trying to say the Milbert 12 volt tube amps are not designed car specific?
quote:Originally posted by spydermann: all4SQ, the car specific tube amps were desinged to cut down on the microphonics, the amplification of vibriations pickup by the tube stage.
Are you trying to say the Milbert 12 volt tube amps are not designed car specific?
not at all just pointing out the sound that was made
-------------------- spydermann
Don't get caught in the WEB Gimmie some bass baby keep your XXX and others, MTX for me Is that me in the top 10 now?? Do you smell what the BASS is cooking... Posts: 6799 | From: cincinnati, oh, USA | Registered: Jun 1999
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quote:Originally posted by ShadowStar: 1) A tube is more expensive to manufacture, leading customers to automatically assume superiority based on cost.
2) A tube is an "olden-day" device, which brings nostalgaic memories and a certain assumed ability which is then handed down through the generations. "Back in the old days we used tubes, they were tough, they did this well or that well" etc.
3) A tube engenders a higher 2nd order distorted signal, which sounds "warmer" in the critical midrange band. However, a tube device lacks upper end and lower end response. Usually however the people that listen to them are older, whose hearing is lost at upper and lower ends, and the warmth in the critical midrange coupled with the response anomalies makes them sound more appealing to such people.
4) Companies can make a LOT more money off tube amplifiers than MOSFET amplifiers with much less marketing.
5) Tube amplifiers have horrible distortion numbers and such.. Which means that their objective measurments are thrown out the window and they are usually subjectively reviewed. Its easy for unreasonable amounts of money to be spent in such a market.
6) They glow.
7) They heat up! Free 100 BTU space heater with every amplifier purchase!
Basically, they add undefeatable distortion to the sound and truncate response. I think something like that is cool, if thats what you like listening to. Just do it in a pre-amplifier, so its defeatable and removeable. Nothing else in the system but your tone controls and speakers, should colour the sound.
ShadowStar
Shadow , I'm surprised at your answer , and if I may add, somewhat insulted that you'd think that only old fogies listen to tube amps . I would venture to say you have never made the comparison, considering your choice of reasons . There are some of us that can instantly tell between the sound of tubes or the sound of transistors. Have you tried some Q-tips lately ? I mean no offence dude, but really .., tsk tsk .
-------------------- E.C. Wuz here Posts: 1057 | From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada 'eh | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I just found this site/thread, and I didn't realize you were having these problems. It's an old post but I thought I'd respond anyway.
1. None of the 3 models of BaM tube amps should ever have any turn off snaps, pops or noises whatsoever. When the remote trigger lead drops from 12 volts to ground, it signals the power supply to turn off, to stop switching, and that is all. The output is not muted to ground or relayed open; instead, all the stored energy in the amp then keeps on amplifying for several seconds as the audio level slowly dies out. The major turn off snap you were hearing must have been caused by something upstream.
2. In earlier runs, the gain was set rather high. This can be adjusted, even to a custom value; doing so requires having us change a few resistors inside. For head units that can output higher signal levels lowering the amp's gain is possible, and this will help reduce any hiss on dash tweeters or horns.
3. Unsure what to make of this. Many people use these amps and report no problems. Feel free to contact us directly regarding any repair issues: info at milbert dot com.
4. Sometimes at shows, we've dropped the amps onto the table while they're playing --never a peep. Tapping them with a hammer, dropping them and rough-handling them a bit is part of the burn-in process and listening tests, and it's meant to go pretty far beyond what they'd receive in shipping or ever see in any installation. The circuitry is patented and is not of traditional design, so any fragility of typical tube amps doesn't apply. The amps are just not microphonic. Of course it's always possible that an input tube was going funky --but that's a simple replacement-- and it's usually characterized by random pops unrelated to bumps.
5. Unsure what you mean; they've always been built by hand here in the USA.
We're always available for help or info at milbert.com
Best regards, Michael Milbert
Posts: 2 | From: DC | Registered: Jun 2006
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The US tube amps are some kick booty amps. I did direct comparisons with the TU-600 vs. the 600x and with setting the gains by ear I could tell absolutely no difference. I think that any difference that could be determined would be either psycho-acoustic or the result of more headroom as a direct comparison of the two amps rated for the same power is like David and Goliath...the TU is just a much stronger amp.
I believe in tubes. I believe they can serve a great purpose as a midrange only amp, but I don't believe the hybrid designs accomplish anything more than psychoacoustic. I do however love tube amps on midrange....tubes and electostats-mmmmm.
That being said if the new series holds true to the claims on your site it would make a kick booty midrange amp.
Micheal, if I start competing again I'll hit you up for a free trial. If I take a world/national final, you give me the amps at 1/25th of the MSRP, which is what I could afford Posts: 2276 | From: East | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I'd like to try the new Autobias...but I'll be honest here, I'm very fond of SET designs...so any a/b will not be the same.
-------------------- Team Image Dynamics/Zapco/Werewolf/JK Lab Team Kinetik Sick Bastard Audio SQ Who feels it knows it Posts: 7993 | From: Charlotte,NC USA | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Many people would no doubt agree with you regarding midrange.
We're interested in getting more amps out there ebcause it seems best for people to just hear and then decide. Instead of words and numbers, it's about sensation and emotion, and I think on that basis the amp makes its own most compelling presentation.
I'm fond of SET designs, too. It's just the low power and heat/fragility that get in the way of making them work reliably in a car...reliability is super important. But, oh the sound...
Autobias is a big feature in the BaM-235ab, but other important stuff, long overdue and long tested, is in there now: single-circuitboard that's thicker all around and of better material; substantially improved layout (though we still made it fit all existing chassis so "drop-in" upgrades are available); and bigger, better and more capacitors in smarter places. There's actually real meat, measurable and audible improvement behind the changes and not just hypey adjectives. There's also removable feedback in the 235ab, so the amp can run wide open. I tend to prefer that sound -- it opens up in a fairly astonishing way that some guys here have called SET-like -- on most music, with the bass geting just a tad looser and the highs getting into it when really driving hard. The increased nuance can be surprising.
Posts: 2 | From: DC | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ShadowStar: 1) A tube is more expensive to manufacture, leading customers to automatically assume superiority based on cost.
2) A tube is an "olden-day" device, which brings nostalgaic memories and a certain assumed ability which is then handed down through the generations. "Back in the old days we used tubes, they were tough, they did this well or that well" etc.
3) A tube engenders a higher 2nd order distorted signal, which sounds "warmer" in the critical midrange band. However, a tube device lacks upper end and lower end response. Usually however the people that listen to them are older, whose hearing is lost at upper and lower ends, and the warmth in the critical midrange coupled with the response anomalies makes them sound more appealing to such people.
4) Companies can make a LOT more money off tube amplifiers than MOSFET amplifiers with much less marketing.
5) Tube amplifiers have horrible distortion numbers and such.. Which means that their objective measurments are thrown out the window and they are usually subjectively reviewed. Its easy for unreasonable amounts of money to be spent in such a market.
6) They glow.
7) They heat up! Free 100 BTU space heater with every amplifier purchase!
Basically, they add undefeatable distortion to the sound and truncate response. I think something like that is cool, if thats what you like listening to. Just do it in a pre-amplifier, so its defeatable and removeable. Nothing else in the system but your tone controls and speakers, should colour the sound.
ShadowStar
Shadow , I'm surprised at your answer , and if I may add, somewhat insulted that you'd think that only old fogies listen to tube amps . I would venture to say you have never made the comparison, considering your choice of reasons . There are some of us that can instantly tell between the sound of tubes or the sound of transistors. Have you tried some Q-tips lately ? I mean no offence dude, but really .., tsk tsk .
Holy crap I never realized there was a follow up. Eli, I've listened to several tube amps (not millions, but several at least) and done a couple A/B comparisons, in HT and the 12v world. I personally did like the warm characteristics in instruments like violins, but listening to big band, for example, told me a different story in an A/B switch. Even on the same speakers there was just a different level of "pop" and "in-your-face" that I expect with the big band swing style music I was auditioning.
However, I can definately tell the difference. I stick by, 100%, the suggestion that such tonal changes should be preamplified and that solid state power amplification is superior. I object highly to the price/performance ratio of tube amps. Again, as I said, if you like it, thats your thing.. I still say it should be done on a low voltage scale where noise, microphonics and impedance matching characteristics all line up better.
Some of the reasons given were certainly centered around my dislike of the "tube subculture" however I do think that a lot of money gets made on esoteriscism that has better applications elsewhere.
No offense taken or intended.
ShadowStar
-------------------- You can't build a reputation for what you're GOING to do.. But you can build one for TALKING about it!
It's all about knowledge, love and respect. Posts: 2579 | From: Somewhere In the Northeast | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I have both a TU-4360 and TU-600 from US Amps.
Great sounding amps as far as for my highs. Soon my 4 channel will be on a pair of tweets and a pair of mids, while my tu-600 will be for my 6.5" midbasses. Waiting patiently for my 3-way front stage.
Also, in my install, I don't have ant turn off or turn on pops or snaps. I am also blessed with zero engine noise so far. (knocks on wood)
Wouldn't trade them for anything else at this moment. I really like mine.
quote:Originally posted by winslow: Heard them both...Mike's T-Bird had some serious hiss gong on...just like tube amps do- probably why he got 2nd place at the 2k1 Finals by such a small margin.
yep! Couldn't make the Milbert tube amps work well enough to make me happy.
Had three major problems.
Major turn off snap. The only fix was relay's between the speaker wires so the relays opened before the amp shut off.
Massive amounts of hiss. The amps just seemed to create it on there own. Tried line drivers and noise gates but nothing helped. No one likes hiss with there music!
Had to have them repaired twice in one year. Good luck in maintaining 20 Vaccum tubes in a car. Also was never able to listen to the system while driving. The tweeter amp would make a real bad scratching sound when you hit even the smallest bump.
That's not to say that someone else could not make them work. Or at least be willing to put up with the problems they had.
After going with Kicker ZR amps, I have Zero hiss with my music and lots of headroom. More power can do that!
I personally would recommend going solid state and spending the extra money on better mids and tweets. My preference Scanspeak Revelator or Mb Quart QSD. Both sound amazing!
I don't know of any Iasca competitors that use Milbert amps. Mark Ligget used them in 2001, but in 2002 he said they were custom built tube amps. His truck was the best sounding vehicle I heard at the finals. Still hard to believe he only got 4th place.
Anyways, what ever you buy enjoy the heck out of it! I sure do!
Thanks
^ I also had some of the problem you discribed above..... the turn off snap was one. I had to use a timed relay to keep all the processor on till the Milbert is totally power down.
The hiss issue was interesting... I have two Milberts, one looks like is from a early run. and that one has quite a bit more hiss then the other one i have. so, maybe there's a mod for it i don't know..... cause i was told to send them in for like $250 to repair it. (which i still hav't done yet)
The other scratchy noise you mention.... will be a bad tube. which i have experienced before. usually either the 12ax7 or the 12at7 and even the 6sn7. the outputs seems to be o.k. in most cases.
posted
I have owned the TU-600 and TU-4360, they are very untube sounding tube amps. Their design is an attempt to do what tubes do best (voltage) and what transistors do best (current) I also thought they excelled in the mids and highs and were dynamic as heck. Perfect products?... no both spent time at US Amps having a design flaw (2003) corrected, they tended to sound fuzzy in the midrange due to the flaw. Rolling tubes (different brands, MILSPEC etc.) can alter the sound since tube manufacture from brand to brand is not quite as precise a science as todays youth would like to believe.
I do not think there is much excuse for the HISS or HUMMMM in a tube amp designed in the last 2 or 3 decades. BUT Tubes as they age do interesting things (burp, fart, go into microphonics, take longer to warm up) including adding hiss.
A well designed tube or transistor amp should be nearly indistinguishable from each other. Tube amps do tend to be much higher in distortion levels than transistors and that really doesn't mean very much from a listeners point of view (most cant hear distortion under the 5% level). Tubes can be a royal pain in the butt, they also tend to enlist an emotional response. The distortion in tubes sometimes gives a deeper soundstage and may give a nice euphoric tonal coloration but not always. I have used numerous tubed products over the years and have had good and less good experiences... IMO what ever gets you closer to the recorded event...
SET amps have the absolute worse specs you will ever see in a production amp yet they seem to to an exceptional job of sounding scary real in the right setup (cant imagine this in a car).
Also a tube amp should be as impervious to road hazard induced noise as a transistor amp, period. Don't think I am standing up for nor putting down tube amps, they are a valid choise in the market, just not the most practical.
quote:Originally post by MikeMilbert: 2. In earlier runs, the gain was set rather high. This can be adjusted, even to a custom value; doing so requires having us change a few resistors inside. For head units that can output higher signal levels lowering the amp's gain is possible, and this will help reduce any hiss on dash tweeters or horns
Hello Mike
I have 2 Milbert Bam-235, and it does have some hiss. worst on one of them. Could you please send me some detail on this mod? thx. audiogears@shaw.ca
quote:Originally post by MikeMilbert: 2. In earlier runs, the gain was set rather high. This can be adjusted, even to a custom value; doing so requires having us change a few resistors inside. For head units that can output higher signal levels lowering the amp's gain is possible, and this will help reduce any hiss on dash tweeters or horns
Hello Mike
I have 2 Milbert Bam-235, and it does have some hiss. worst on one of them. Could you please send me some detail on this mod? thx. audiogears@shaw.ca
You are best off to try to contact him, the odds that he is checking this forum daily are slim to none.
Posts: 2276 | From: East | Registered: Jan 2003
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