posted
In my never ending quest for a good SQ set-up, I'm condsidering th US AMPS tube amps. I've known aabout tube amps for some time, but what is it about them that makes them superior over regular amps? Are they worth the money?
on a side note, do the US AMPS versions of tube amps make much more than they are rated for?
Thanks!
dj MaddShadez
-------------------- 1993 Lincoln Mark VIII
Old Alpine Head Unit Rainbow Pro 3 ways in custom kick pods Kicker SX900.4 Kicker 2002 S12L7 Revolution 1500.1 More to Come, if my wife lets me... Posts: 297 | From: Xenia, OH | Registered: Aug 2002
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I recall reading somewhere that you could use a resistor (I don't remember the value) to make a standard MOSFET amplifier sound like a tube amplier; it simply added some distortion to "simulate" the tube sound.
Whether this is true or not, I don't know. My A/B amps are good enough for me Posts: 1408 | From: Stacyville, IA, USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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Tube amps impart a certain amount of even order distortion, which many consider more euphonic. Most of the best guitar amp are tubed.
Posts: 78 | From: Houston, TX | Registered: Feb 2002
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1) A tube is more expensive to manufacture, leading customers to automatically assume superiority based on cost.
2) A tube is an "olden-day" device, which brings nostalgaic memories and a certain assumed ability which is then handed down through the generations. "Back in the old days we used tubes, they were tough, they did this well or that well" etc.
3) A tube engenders a higher 2nd order distorted signal, which sounds "warmer" in the critical midrange band. However, a tube device lacks upper end and lower end response. Usually however the people that listen to them are older, whose hearing is lost at upper and lower ends, and the warmth in the critical midrange coupled with the response anomalies makes them sound more appealing to such people.
4) Companies can make a LOT more money off tube amplifiers than MOSFET amplifiers with much less marketing.
5) Tube amplifiers have horrible distortion numbers and such.. Which means that their objective measurments are thrown out the window and they are usually subjectively reviewed. Its easy for unreasonable amounts of money to be spent in such a market.
6) They glow.
7) They heat up! Free 100 BTU space heater with every amplifier purchase!
Basically, they add undefeatable distortion to the sound and truncate response. I think something like that is cool, if thats what you like listening to. Just do it in a pre-amplifier, so its defeatable and removeable. Nothing else in the system but your tone controls and speakers, should colour the sound.
ShadowStar
-------------------- You can't build a reputation for what you're GOING to do.. But you can build one for TALKING about it!
It's all about knowledge, love and respect. Posts: 2579 | From: Somewhere In the Northeast | Registered: May 1999
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Okay, I have read all of these posts, and I have a little bit of inside info that I don't understand. I have been working upgradeing my car to the "best" SQ I can, and I have looked at about every amp. out there I think. I have a friend who owns a car stereo shop here in town, and he has been helping me research alot of products lately. He deals with audio control alot so he called the rep. there and asked him which amp would be the cleanest to go with the Alpine F-1 HU and processor that I have. It seems that they do alot of independent tests on different products to keep up with the Jones' so to speak. The guy he talked to said that of all the amps they have tested that the US Amps tube models are the best in his opinion for SQ. He said that they test out way above their specs, SNR was 118 and stereo seperation was above 100 on both models! These numbers were recorded above the published RMS power ratings also. He recomended that I use the tube amp for the mids, and highs and a dedicated sub amp for the lows saying that the tube amps don't do very well for low end frequences. So, why does everyone rag on these amps? I am not BS-ing anyone either, I was standing there through the whole conversation.
Posts: 45 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Dec 2002
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The USAmps tube amps are good, no doubt. But it isn't because they use tubes. The USAmps and othe hybrid tube amps don't exhibit all the drawbacks of amps that use tubes in the outputs. But the rest of the amp is designed very well. I think the S/N number of 118 seems real high, but I'm not saying it can't be done. Since the tubes are only being used to do voltage amplification and are not needed to do the current amplification, the distortion won't be nearly as bad. But in hybrid designs I don't see how a tube is any better than a FET or BJT stage. It is more difficult to design because you need a higher voltage for the tube. But you can design simple solid state voltage amplifier circuits that would do the job as good or better than the tubes. In the case of the USAmps they may spec better than other amps, but it isn't becuase of the tubes, and I don't think it would make an audible difference in your car.
Posts: 2575 | From: GA | Registered: May 1999
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Well all I got to say is that my phaze audio td1500 tube driver is the best sounding amp I've got. My zapco amp is cleaner but my td1500 blows it away in how good it sounds. Just buy one, try one, and if you don't like it, sell it. I've had numerous amp and I like trying things out and selling it but I never sold my tube driver.
-------------------- Anyone in S. Cali have horns in their car that I can audition? Posts: 46 | From: Los Angeles. | Registered: Nov 2002
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What you were saying jc2 about the US tube models not seeming like they would sound any different than solid state amps is the same response I had. This seemed logical to me also, but the guy at AC said they simply tested out alot cleaner than the other US models they had tested, or any other amp for that matter. He also said that in his opinion they don't have the "distorted" sound that other tube amps have, but still have a different sound than a solid state amp. What impresed me so much is him saying that this is the only amp they have tested that would match up with my F-1 equipment pretty well. One reason he claimed they sound more "pure" is because that they don't have any built in crossovers. He said I very much need an amp without built in crossovers because this would not potentially cloud the signal, supposedly accoring to him built in crossovers degrade the signal and make it harder for most amps to reach higher specs than they normally would. At this point I am just interested in hearing these amps compared to others to see how I think they sound. Does anyone have any of the US Amps tube models and would be willing to add some subjective info to this post?
Posts: 45 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Dec 2002
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I have the UsAmps TU-600. Unforunately I have not heard it yet. I was supposed to get my system installed months ago but i'm still waiting. I just get to look at all my stuff everyday as it sits in my room and collects dust.
I probably won't be able to give you any feedback on this amp in time. I believe Winslow is using this amp. So maybe he can add to this.
posted
There is no doubt in my mind that tube amps sound different. However, as JC2 pointed out, US amps tube hybrid's are built extremely well from the beginning (I'm mostly impressed with their power supplies), and adding a tube stage to them that is only being used as a voltage amplifier shouldn't affect the amps outputs the way a conventional tube amp would.
The S/N number seems to be suspect high- but I like the channel separation (not that it matters much over about 50db).
Again, not saying that these amps aren't great- they obviously are- just re-iterating what Jeremy already said- it's probably not because of the tubes...
I also like SS's idea of having the tube section in a preamplifier- you wouldn't have to buy multiple tube amps to get the same overall effect... and you could use that money you saved on MORE POWER or better drivers, where it's really needed!
-------------------- Love Always, Mr. Negative
Murphy's law's apply to everything I say! Posts: 3120 | From: nowhere | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by ByPass: Well all I got to say is that my phaze audio td1500 tube driver is the best sounding amp I've got. My zapco amp is cleaner but my td1500 blows it away in how good it sounds. Just buy one, try one, and if you don't like it, sell it. I've had numerous amp and I like trying things out and selling it but I never sold my tube driver.
the only pace it would sound "better" would be in the 2kHz-5kHz range and if you look at the low or higher freq resp. you'll see that it's quite lacking. the THD+N on most tube amps is in the 5% range, even though they say it's even not odd(IC chips produce more odd order which is said to add a metalic or hard/harsh edge to music), so the even order harmonics are easier on the ear but for the amost double cost for a tube amp I don't see the real benifits. if the very top comps. who have access to every amp on the planet don't use them, and are out for just SQ why would I go another way??
-------------------- spydermann
Don't get caught in the WEB Gimmie some bass baby keep your XXX and others, MTX for me Is that me in the top 10 now?? Do you smell what the BASS is cooking... Posts: 6799 | From: cincinnati, oh, USA | Registered: Jun 1999
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i have the TDB and the sound quality is wonderful. great build and service too. some people love it some hates it. you just need to audition them yourself and make you own conclusion.
Posts: 39 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:Originally posted by phunktion: I have the UsAmps TU-600. Unforunately I have not heard it yet. I was supposed to get my system installed months ago but i'm still waiting. I just get to look at all my stuff everyday as it sits in my room and collects dust.
I probably won't be able to give you any feedback on this amp in time. I believe Winslow is using this amp. So maybe he can add to this.
Why don't you instal everything yourself? It is not hard to learn how to instal any of the stuff you have. I have learned how to instal by pretty much reading and trial and error; now I don't trust anyone but myself to do my instals. This way you learn alot more about the equipment you are using and you will pay alot more attention to detail than anyone else. Even if you want a much more detailed instal than you are presently capable of, it would still be a good idea to know the basics of instalation so you can self diagnose a problem if something tears up.
Posts: 45 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Dec 2002
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I gave the old Phaze tube amp a listen and didn't think it was worth the money. to me it seems like the bottom and top is boosted to etch out more detail on the range that the tube is lacking. the tube amps in cars are normal amps just in the output stage they throw in some mid-fi, for the most part not top of the line tubes. so with all this thrown in the mix and the high THD+N, but as I've been told, the harmoinc content doesn't matter with tube compared to IC. like spks., cars, clothes, and women it's all in the eyes of the beholder
-------------------- spydermann
Don't get caught in the WEB Gimmie some bass baby keep your XXX and others, MTX for me Is that me in the top 10 now?? Do you smell what the BASS is cooking... Posts: 6799 | From: cincinnati, oh, USA | Registered: Jun 1999
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The Milbert tube amps were used by one competitor that I know of, Earl Zausmer. Milberts are tru tube amps, with tube output stages. They have about 30 watts of power into whatever load you need. They had output transformers to get the right impedance.
Posts: 2575 | From: GA | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by jc2: The Milbert tube amps were used by one competitor that I know of, Earl Zausmer. Milberts are tru tube amps, with tube output stages. They have about 30 watts of power into whatever load you need. They had output transformers to get the right impedance.
but didn't he switch those out for an all Zapco system??
-------------------- spydermann
Don't get caught in the WEB Gimmie some bass baby keep your XXX and others, MTX for me Is that me in the top 10 now?? Do you smell what the BASS is cooking... Posts: 6799 | From: cincinnati, oh, USA | Registered: Jun 1999
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Heard them both...Mike's T-Bird had some serious hiss gong on...just like tube amps do- probably why he got 2nd place at the 2k1 Finals by such a small margin.
-------------------- Team Image Dynamics/Zapco/Werewolf/JK Lab Team Kinetik Sick Bastard Audio SQ Who feels it knows it Posts: 7993 | From: Charlotte,NC USA | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by winslow: Heard them both...Mike's T-Bird had some serious hiss gong on...just like tube amps do- probably why he got 2nd place at the 2k1 Finals by such a small margin.
yep! Couldn't make the Milbert tube amps work well enough to make me happy.
Had three major problems.
Major turn off snap. The only fix was relay's between the speaker wires so the relays opened before the amp shut off.
Massive amounts of hiss. The amps just seemed to create it on there own. Tried line drivers and noise gates but nothing helped. No one likes hiss with there music!
Had to have them repaired twice in one year. Good luck in maintaining 20 Vaccum tubes in a car. Also was never able to listen to the system while driving. The tweeter amp would make a real bad scratching sound when you hit even the smallest bump.
That's not to say that someone else could not make them work. Or at least be willing to put up with the problems they had.
After going with Kicker ZR amps, I have Zero hiss with my music and lots of headroom. More power can do that!
I personally would recommend going solid state and spending the extra money on better mids and tweets. My preference Scanspeak Revelator or Mb Quart QSD. Both sound amazing!
I don't know of any Iasca competitors that use Milbert amps. Mark Ligget used them in 2001, but in 2002 he said they were custom built tube amps. His truck was the best sounding vehicle I heard at the finals. Still hard to believe he only got 4th place.
Anyways, what ever you buy enjoy the heck out of it! I sure do!
posted
all4SQ, the car specific tube amps were desinged to cut down on the microphonics, the amplification of vibriations pickup by the tube stage.
-------------------- spydermann
Don't get caught in the WEB Gimmie some bass baby keep your XXX and others, MTX for me Is that me in the top 10 now?? Do you smell what the BASS is cooking... Posts: 6799 | From: cincinnati, oh, USA | Registered: Jun 1999
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