posted
ok.. I have all my equipment bought except for H/O alt, wiring, and alarm.
system will be like this going into a 97 Accord EX... has leather seats.
..signal Kenwood KDC-X815 deck to Audio Control FOUR.1 indash EQ to Linear Power X-03 crossover to three amps Linear Power 3.2HV sub amp (low pass) Linear Power 2.2HV midbass amp (bandpass) Linear Power 2.2HV mids/highs amp (high pass) CDT Audio Satnet 456 passive xover for mids/highs (btw, this is the 60db/octave xovers) .. speakers 2 Crystal CMP12 subs in sealed enclosure in trunk Dynaudio System 360 8" midbass will be on 1 2.2hv .. midrange and tweet will be run on 1 2.2hv and split by the passive xover. .. electrical Optima Redtop Plan on getting a H/O 135 alt (or higher if possible but probably Stinger) All RCA's are PG ZPA series and purchased.
All will be installed by my most reputable local shop having installers experienced with my components and SQ competition judging.
First I'll give my intent of this system. I enjoy all music genres, sound quality, and car audio in general. I've been planning for a system like this since I was like 10 years old and I'm now 22 so getting this is like a dream come true for me. This system isn't used as an extention to my cars worth or "cool" factor. I have not/will not modify my car with "pimpish" effects and riceroni racing equipment. The car is stock and will remain so other than the audio equipment (possibly a few INTERNAL horsepower modifications in the future.. for better gas mileage and pickup ). I did not buy this system to compete but I wouldn't mind maybe entering a local comp once or so a year (not looking to get sponsored or anything). I want it sounding top notch (my #1 priority), stealthly installed (#2 priority), and hitting ~145+db (#3 priority; sq+ if you will).
Questions. 1. Would this system fair well in competing or would I be put to shame enough to want to stay away from them? 2. Would you suggest an addition of a yellow top or caps?(not a big fan of caps) 3. Given the equipment, is ~145db feasible? 4. I'm still very weary of the installer I choose. Since I know how important the install is for the system, I want to choose the best way to install this. The 2 best shops in my area are suggesting different approaches. 1 shop says they'd build the midbass in kicks and put the midrange in the 5.25" door location with whatever alterations needed and the tweet mounted at the top of the door near the door handle and window controls. The other shop wants to rebuild the door to place the midbass in and build kicks for the midrange and tweet. The first shop quoted a bit lower price of course but that's not affecting my decision. What would be the best solution? 5. Also, shop 1 carries monster cable wiring and shop 2 carries stinger. I don't want to use either of them really because I want to go with PG wiring. What would the best way to go about getting that accomplished? 6. Any other suggested additions or changes in making the system better (sound-wise)?
posted
Looks like you have some very nice equipment there, first off.
I've been in that position before, where you have your own plans which include different equipment than the shops sell...it's a tough situation, because most simply want to sell you their stuff, so they say that whatever you have is no good and should be replaced etc...I think you need to just go in there, don't be arrogant, but make it clear what you have and what you want done, and simply get them to assure you that whatever they do will be guaranteed. If they come off like they aren't sure it will work, go elsewhere.
My limited experience would say put the midbass in the door and put the midrange and tweet in kicks so they are aimed better.
I'm also going to use PG wiring I believe, makes a nice match for my PG Ti500.4 amps and the shop I'm going to use happens to carry it.
quote:Originally posted by t03sq: 4. I'm still very weary of the installer I choose. Since I know how important the install is for the system, I want to choose the best way to install this. The 2 best shops in my area are suggesting different approaches. 1 shop says they'd build the midbass in kicks and put the midrange in the 5.25" door location with whatever alterations needed and the tweet mounted at the top of the door near the door handle and window controls. The other shop wants to rebuild the door to place the midbass in and build kicks for the midrange and tweet. The first shop quoted a bit lower price of course but that's not affecting my decision. What would be the best solution?
It would really concern me that both of these shops are telling you where they are going to place speakers in your vehicle, for a SQ system, before actually sitting in the vehicle and doing testing to determine the best location. Some experience might be there, but unless the individual was using the exact component speakers you are using, in the same vehicle, with the same interior, testing will be required.
posted
I would be VERY wary of using CD Tech x-overs with Dyn's. X-overs have to be designed with the speaker they are intended to work with in mind. If you use other speakers, you will most likely NOT get the same x-over points as you would if you used a matched set. I would use the Dyn x-overs and ditch the CD Tech's. Its not worth it to risk messing up your sound on such a nice set of speakers. I don't know who told you to buy the CD Tech's, but whoever it is was simply trying to make a sale . . .
Posts: 232 | From: Coeur d' Alene, ID | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote: I've been in that position before, where you have your own plans which include different equipment than the shops sell...
Yep, that's my wiring situation. Was easier getting the RCA's since I knew how many I needed and what sizes. The overall wiring of this 3 amp system would be a little tougher to judge from fuse box to speakerwire to bat terminals. There is a local shop that sells the PG wiring but really, I've seen their shop and there's no way I'd let them touch my $4000 in equipment.
quote:It would really concern me that both of these shops are telling you where they are going to place speakers in your vehicle, for a SQ system, before actually sitting in the vehicle and doing testing to determine the best location. Some experience might be there, but unless the individual was using the exact component speakers you are using, in the same vehicle, with the same interior, testing will be required.
The second shop is the shop with experience in Dyn products since they sell them. He seemed to give me more of the impression that testing and tuning would be done. Other shop (although very experienced) just seemed to think it'd sound good wherever and wanted to put the midbass in the kick because it would be easier than rebuilding the door. I'm leaning towards the 2nd shop and would go with them no doubt if it weren't for the owners/salesmans arrogent ass. I just cant stand the guy.
quote: I would use the Dyn x-overs and ditch the CD Tech's. Its not worth it to risk messing up your sound on such a nice set of speakers. I don't know who told you to buy the CD Tech's, but whoever it is was simply trying to make a sale . . .
Actually, nobody sales pitched these to me. I planned the entire system myself. My situation was that I wanted to use 1 amp for the midbass and 1 for the mids/highs. I pretty much had to ditch the 3way xover that came with the set (no I didn't trash them). The arrogent ass mentioned above tried to pitch me into buying (from him of course) the dyn 2way xover. The reason I bought the CDT is I read a review on the components raving over the blissful set but only seeing problems with the 6db/octave crossovers they came with. I wanted steeper slopes and didnt want my speakers struggling like the review mentioned. Also the CDT slopes fit well with the system I feel and what I wanted to do with it.
12"s - ~20 to 70 Hz 8"s - ~70 to 1000 Hz 3"s - ~1000 to 5000 Hz 1"s - 5000 to 20000 Hz
The original xover cuts at 700 Hz and 4000 Hz at 6db/octave. The sub/midbass cut will be from the X-03 @ 24db/octave. The midbass/midrange cut will be from the X-03 @ 12db/octave. The midrange/tweet cut will be from the CDT at 5000Hz with 60db/octave.
Response range on the drivers 8" 40Hz-3.4kHz 3" 500Hz-6kHz 1" 2500Hz-25kHz
the 4000 to 5000Hz jump will be padded by the steeper slope xovers and still be well within the range of the speakers.
posted
I still wouldn't use the CD Tech's. I know they sound good in theory, but they won't work out. Here are the reasons:
1) The zobel (a zobel is an impedance compensation circuit that makes the x-over see a constant impedanced, and therefore have a constant x-over point. Otherwise the x-over point will rise with frequency, which is not good) will either be way off or non existent. If the CD Tech x-over has a zobel, zobels are designed around the drivers' voice coil inductance and resistance. The odds that the Dyn and CD Tech's have the same characteristics are low.
2) Dyn puts frequecy compensation in their x-overs. If you go CD Tech, you won't have this. Or if it does have one, it will be compensating the wrong frequency.
Anyway, I cannot stress to you enough that I would NOT do this. Also, just so you know my credibility, I am a 4th year electrical engineering student. Also, 6 dB/oct x-overs are not near as bad as people say they are. In fact, they are the best x-over arrangement on the market for SQ. Dyn engineers knew what they were doing. Just use the stock x-overs.
Oh yeah, I wanted to add one last thought on the Zobel. Either way you are screwed with the CDT x-overs. Either they WON'T have a zobel, and your x-over point will change with frequency, or they WILL have a zobel, but one with the wrong values, and that would really mess things up.
posted
I agree wholeheartedly. Passive crossovers are built AROUND specific drivers. You just can't put any driver on it and expect it to work. Use the Dyn crossover, or build different ones with steeper slopes if you want to have them.
Posts: 3961 | From: State College, PA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
I had a big phat reply typed up, and I thing it got lost somewhere...huh.
Anyways...random notes and thoughts...
Kickpanels for the midranges and tweeters are probably a "safe" option...will probably work well with less work, though your car might do well with another arrangement.
The Linear Power amps rock!
I wouldn't use the CDT passives either. Dynaudio has the schematics for their speakers on the website. Most use a simple 6 dB/oct crossover, and that is Dyn's recommendation.
You can play those 8s alot lower than 70 hertz, and should play them as low as possible to keep the bass upfront feel.
-------------------- Team Image Dynamics/Zapco/Werewolf/JK Lab Team Kinetik Sick Bastard Audio SQ Who feels it knows it Posts: 7993 | From: Charlotte,NC USA | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I appreciate your suggestions. Perhaps, I'll have the installer test the CDT's and the original 3way's to see which one is working better. Don't really wanna waste $100 pair of xovers without giving them a shot first. Also, would the 3way xover work with just splitting the mids and highs? Or do I need to go purchase the Dyn 2way xover?
Oh and the general 70hz figure was just something I pulled off the top of my head. I agree with keeping the 8's driving as low a frequency as possible for better soundstage. LP does rock! Wouldn't plan a system without them unless I had to. I was gonna go with the PA2 EQ instead of the FOUR.1 but they were out of stock at the time. Maybe I'll supply some pics to LP for their demo section anyway. BTW, How's Brian over at Freeman's doing?
posted
you can use the three way x-overs, just make sure that the outputs for the midbass are well covered so that they dont ground out to anything and blow the x-over, amp, speakers, etc.
Posts: 232 | From: Coeur d' Alene, ID | Registered: Jul 2000
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-------------------- Team Image Dynamics/Zapco/Werewolf/JK Lab Team Kinetik Sick Bastard Audio SQ Who feels it knows it Posts: 7993 | From: Charlotte,NC USA | Registered: May 1999
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Questions. 1. Would this system fair well in competing or would I be put to shame enough to want to stay away from them?
That my friend you can never determine until you get in the lanes.
Some have many thousands of $ into equipment and do not do that well. Some have a simple system and do real well. You will not be put to shame though. Competitors are friendly and willing to help for the most part.
I would suggest a 1/3 octave eq at minimum. Good luck with your system.
-------------------- Charles Logsdon sqcamry@cox.net ALPINE/QUART/FOSGATE TEAM RF/TEAM MBQUART Posts: 223 | From: Chesapeake, Va. | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
A quick thought, instead of worrying about passives at all, you are one amp away from being able to run full active. Why not purchase another LP 2.2 and run a full active system?
You would need a crossover that gives you a low pass, midbass bandpass, midrange bandpass, and a high pass. Your tuning ease will greatly exceed the additional expense. You could buy another LP crossover and daisy chain them.
posted
I agree. Running active is far superior to passive. Food for thought at least . . .
Posts: 232 | From: Coeur d' Alene, ID | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
sounds like nice future plans. I think I'll keep it to a simpler 3 amp system for now. Wife not too happy about cost of install as it is. But if I do run up in the lanes one day and catch the bug, I think I'll have to go for it. Would probably go for AC EQ and crossover in the rear and add another 2.2 .. hmm, always wanted to get a PG cyclone.. bah, dont get me started or my kid will starve.
Was referring to the only Brian at freeman's I knew/met at the shop on South Blvd in the Audio/Video store. He sold me one of the 2.2's actually when they used to carry them. Moved here to MN shortly after that. Come to think of it, the bastard tried to sell me the amp over MSRP.
posted
Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't the CDT 60db crossovers in fact 12db per octave units?
Posts: 216 | From: BC Canada | Registered: Jul 2000
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Hey, if you want another X0-3 we have 5 or 6 left in stock that I know we would sell really cheaply- goes for anyone else too.
-------------------- Team Image Dynamics/Zapco/Werewolf/JK Lab Team Kinetik Sick Bastard Audio SQ Who feels it knows it Posts: 7993 | From: Charlotte,NC USA | Registered: May 1999
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posted
kilowatt -- while the CDT's are not 12 dB/oct, what they are is a 24 dB/oct with a 6 dB/oct staggered on a frequency near the 24 dB. Their claim that it is 60 dB/oct is a bit misleading and a wise guy's approach. CDT makes great stuff, don't get me wrong, but all of their crowing about "phase perfect" and all that is mostly marketing hype. There is no such thing is a "phase perfect" x-over as long as they are being made out of passive components. There techically is a way to make a phase perfect x-over, but the # of parts and the size and insertion loss of the x-over make them impractical.
Posts: 232 | From: Coeur d' Alene, ID | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
300ZXNA-Thanks, I knew it was no where near the 60db slope as the name implies, marketing 101... Posts: 216 | From: BC Canada | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
I looked at a schematic for a 60dB/oct passive a couple months ago, I don't know if it was CDT or not. The one I saw basically had a very sharp notch filter right around the crossover point. So once you get into the crossover frequency the output drops at near 60dB/oct, but it doesn't last long and once you get past the notch filter, the slope was 12dB/oct. I'm not sure if the design goal was to remove a resonance or just to roll off faster around the xo point.
In any case I certainly wouldn't use drivers that weren't specifically designed for a crossover like this.
Posts: 2575 | From: GA | Registered: May 1999
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posted
from what someone told me it was (2) two 4th order LR filters with a 6dB/oct. thrown in at the x-over point, but that could be wrong...or was it a 8th order filter with a 6dB/oct. thrown in, for some reason it WASN'T a 9th order like it should be
-------------------- spydermann
Don't get caught in the WEB Gimmie some bass baby keep your XXX and others, MTX for me Is that me in the top 10 now?? Do you smell what the BASS is cooking... Posts: 6799 | From: cincinnati, oh, USA | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
My description is accurate. I took it right off of CD Tech's website. "60 dB/oct" and "Phase Perfect" is a fabrication of their marketing department. They are neither in reality.
Posts: 232 | From: Coeur d' Alene, ID | Registered: Jul 2000
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