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Just a side note, some of the capacitors coming out today are not the old foil technology caps described above. The RF and Lightning Audio caps are Carbon capacitors, and while I won't go into stupid claims of spl increases, you guys should also remember that capacitors are part of the power supply in most amplifiers today, they are there to re-enforce the power supply. While I'm not a huge cap advocate, there are definitely times when they have their place, and I would encourage you guys to look at the newer cap technology being used today. Depending on the frequency, a good low ESR/ESL capacitor can charge and discharge multiple times within one cycle. (one complete waveform on an oscilloscope) In other words it won't be competing for the same current because it can store it and discharge it many-many times faster then the output section of the amplifier can deliver it, and that is an easily verifiable fact. Absolutely worst case scenario the cap just floats at the constant voltage level seen by the system until the load is lifted, but there is no "competing for the current" as described above. That's one of those old quasi scientiffic wives tales from days gone by.
Posts: 279 | From: GA | Registered: Nov 2003
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hey chris... now that is something ... do you know of any good online resource (and not tooooo technical) about the newer generation of caps?! and how they are different in practice !??
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If you invest into atleast a somewhat HO alternator (130 amps and higher), use 0 gauge and try and be efficient with the lenghth of runs. Then run atleast one deep cycle per 2kw class D your going to be probably okay. I have 2 dei 1100d's, 1 rf 801x, and i don't get any dimming with 260 amp alternator, 800cca starter, 1000cca deep cycle in trunk.
-------------------- RE Audio - CDT Audio - DEI - Alpine - Image Dynamics 00 Impala all slow and no go with some bling. http://members.cardomain.com/chrominimpala Posts: 590 | From: west michigan | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Chris Dilbeck: Just a side note, some of the capacitors coming out today are not the old foil technology caps described above. The RF and Lightning Audio caps are Carbon capacitors, and while I won't go into stupid claims of spl increases, you guys should also remember that capacitors are part of the power supply in most amplifiers today, they are there to re-enforce the power supply. While I'm not a huge cap advocate, there are definitely times when they have their place, and I would encourage you guys to look at the newer cap technology being used today. Depending on the frequency, a good low ESR/ESL capacitor can charge and discharge multiple times within one cycle. (one complete waveform on an oscilloscope) In other words it won't be competing for the same current because it can store it and discharge it many-many times faster then the output section of the amplifier can deliver it, and that is an easily verifiable fact. Absolutely worst case scenario the cap just floats at the constant voltage level seen by the system until the load is lifted, but there is no "competing for the current" as described above. That's one of those old quasi scientiffic wives tales from days gone by.
I heard that batcaps are made up of a lot of capacitors. Is this the technology used in batcaps.
Posts: 34 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Chris Dilbeck: Just a side note, some of the capacitors coming out today are not the old foil technology caps described above. The RF and Lightning Audio caps are Carbon capacitors, and while I won't go into stupid claims of spl increases, you guys should also remember that capacitors are part of the power supply in most amplifiers today, they are there to re-enforce the power supply. While I'm not a huge cap advocate, there are definitely times when they have their place, and I would encourage you guys to look at the newer cap technology being used today. Depending on the frequency, a good low ESR/ESL capacitor can charge and discharge multiple times within one cycle. (one complete waveform on an oscilloscope) In other words it won't be competing for the same current because it can store it and discharge it many-many times faster then the output section of the amplifier can deliver it, and that is an easily verifiable fact. Absolutely worst case scenario the cap just floats at the constant voltage level seen by the system until the load is lifted, but there is no "competing for the current" as described above. That's one of those old quasi scientiffic wives tales from days gone by.
I heard that batcaps are made up of a lot of capacitors. Is this the technology used in batcaps.
That is not true, batcaps are made up of lead strips with a thin dielectric layer between them then rolled up and terminated. The larger ones are many of these. It's more similar to a dry cell battery technology then it is a capacitor.
Posts: 279 | From: GA | Registered: Nov 2003
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I do not think that a simple cap will ever replace a battery or batteries in a serious spl setup But what will happen if you use a 2000 F cap?
-------------------- Dbdragracing is not a sport... IT'S A CURSE! 2009 WF 5th place Posts: 434 | From: ATHENS GREECE | Registered: Oct 2003
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I am running one of the 25 farad carbon caps and it is great. No dimming of the lights or anything.
-------------------- Team Sinister Sounds Clarion 845 Music Catcher Alpine type s Mids Planet Audio Vortex 150X2 2 Planet V2200D's 2- 15" Planet Audio F U's Rockford Fosgate 25 Farad 2 1200 CCA batteries Thanks To Xtreme Audio And My Very Understanding Wife Posts: 40 | From: KY | Registered: Feb 2005
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I have one 50 farad rockford cap, 5 deep cycle batteries, and 3 205 amp alternators. I draw 10,800 watts from them. I have tested with and without the cap. I nodiced daramadic improvements with the cap while driveing around and listining to the music loud for awile. All caps should be disconected during compitition but, they hely for every day use.
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Well one question tho, if your electrical system can't supply enough current already(say you have a big amp or three), then wouldn't a capacitor just drain even more power from the system and thus making the available power even less?
I used to have a deep cycle batttery about a foot away from my amp, it worked really well and even with only a 90 amp alt and stock battery in front my voltage stayed above 13v...this was with a class D Crossfire amp tho.
Tried an US2000X, totally different ball game, dropped my voltage to 11v
-------------------- 98 Cadillac Deville
Premier TS-C504s Cadence SeAqua amps 12" Kicker L7
quote:Originally posted by JBONDOx: Chris, should I say something , not sure if you remember the RC thread?
LMAO and where was Rf when I needed them there? SNAFU, that is TARFU!
It didn't make sense to argue the testing method with RC on his own forum as there are too many people who believe his testing methods were designed by God himself. His test is not condusive with real world applications. He stops answering the thread when it came to real world testing in an automobile just as he stopped answering when I pointed out that two of those caps in parallel would in fact offer signifficant benefit in the form of voltage stabilization and current capacity and that was using his own numbers. But the discussions I had with him were via private e-mail instead of on the forum. But I don't put myself in a position to have any type of confrontation on the forums though as it looks bad for someone in my position - and even worse on when you consider the mindset of most of the people on that forum.
Posts: 279 | From: GA | Registered: Nov 2003
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No, the cap can store a small amount of energy and disperse it extremely fast - the larger the cap, the more it can store, many factors effect have fast it can discharge it.
However, Let's say that you have 200 amps of current capacity at 13 volts from the alternator after all of the vehicle electronics are satisfied. The capacitor can only charge/discharge from the current that is available to it and is only useful when the amplifiers draw enough current to drop the voltage below what the cap is charged at. Then it will only discharge the cap to the level that the system voltage drops to. Then it will re-charge at the rate the alternator can deliver it, but it is always faster then the amplifier can use it.
Any way that you slice it, the current producing devices are the limiting factor. The cap is just a fast battery, but its so fast that the load (the amplifiers) can't keep up with them. A capacitor is never a drain on the system, I don't care what some people have come to believe. Absolute worst case scenario in falling voltage with a heavy constant load then the capacitor will just float at the system voltage level. They are not parasitic devices, they are limited storage devices and people that tell you otherwise simply don't understand the physics behind their operation. The absolute WORST thing that they can do is nothing. I'd be a lot more concerned with voltage drop from the multiple terminals and connections when installing caps then I would be about them being a load.
Posts: 279 | From: GA | Registered: Nov 2003
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Got me started thinking about what all I didn't say in response to that so I decided that I would finish my thoughts. Let's go over some of that commong lingo that you hear people say which is just plain WRONG!
People tend to think that once a cap is discharged that it "will be trying to recharge" That is one of the funniest statements that I've ever heard, and one of the most ignorant. Here's why. The cap has no will, no desire, no programmming, no agenda. It is simply there. Think of it as being nothing more then a voltage gauge for a minute. As the voltage changes up or downward it reads higher or lower voltage All that it is doing is showing you what is present at that point in time. Well A capacitor does the same thing. The only exception is that as the voltage is increasing it is accepting voltage at a higher level. As soon as the voltage drops it spills off that voltage as fast as it can. (which is what people tend to mistakenly call discharging the cap) However, ther capacitor is only dropping down to match the system voltage.
If you have a constant voltage source delivering X amount of current and a constant load at a constanst frequency do you know what that cap is doing? Nothing! It is doing absolutely nothing at all! IF the draw increases from the amplifier then the voltage will drop unless the charging system is capable of delivering the increased current demand. When that happens the capacitor will do it's job and release that stored energy until the voltage either returns to the previous position hence bring the voltage in the cap back up with it or it will come to rest at whatever the voltage is with the now increased load.
Do you get the point in that?
Posts: 279 | From: GA | Registered: Nov 2003
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Actually new test here, either Rf do something with him to shut him up or give in and say they don't work. Something or someone is going to need to budge...
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The problem is that it really isn't worth the effort. His impact outside these forums on this topic has been absolutely zero. RF still makes and sells caps and have overwhelming response from the customers to report their benefits. I have neither the time nor the inclination to get into such debates with him, much less drive up there with a vehicle set up with that equipment in it for him to test. Especially not without determining his method for testing and under what circumstances the vehicle will be tested in advance. Even with terms agreed upon in advance - it's still a couple of hours each way plus the time spent there and everything else that goes along with such an event. There are a lot of things I could be doing which will make more money or bring me more pleasure then to get into a DI(K measuring contest with RC. (mine is bigger but according to him it is too big to be of any use! )
Posts: 279 | From: GA | Registered: Nov 2003
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quote:Originally posted by JBONDOx: LMAO, I know the 50 and 100 farad work, those are the ones I have been using. i have to laugh at it though...
You and me both brother, Too many vehicles with too many excellent reports of their positive effects for his analysis to be accurate. (I used to be anti-capacitor so I guess I'm a convert)
Posts: 279 | From: GA | Registered: Nov 2003
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