-------------------- In Loving Memory, David Alfaro
2009 US.Top Cert.St C 158.7 2008 US.Top Cert.St C 158.4 2008 25-48NW NSPL World Champion 2007 U.S.Top Cert. Street A,B,C 2005 Db Drag St A World Champion 2004 Db Drag US.record 642 points 2003 Db Drag Points World Champion http://www.maxxsonics.com/
Back in 02 my girlfriend said I had to make a choice between her and DB Drag....I told that b-tch I've made harder decisions at the Coke machine. Posts: 4882 | From: Suitland,MD USA | Registered: Sep 2001
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i was actually wondering this same thing... My buddy and i are working on just a fun yet cheap lil project and would like taking it to a few shows just for fun, and it just sooo happens to be in a cargo van.
-------------------- - I don't have a problem with people, its dumb people. So 90% of those who breathe i have trouble with. - If beauty is only skin deep, then ugly goes all the way to the bone Posts: 300 | From: Spokane, WA | Registered: May 2003
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quote:Originally posted by THE-SCRAPER: CARGO VANS IN STREET MAX? YES? ,NO?
It is still a street class, so I do not believe that cargo vans should be allowed in this class. Any cargo van can easily offer double if not tripple the enclosure volume of a full size truck or mini-truck if not more. Cars would have no chance.
This is still a street class with street vehicles, it just offers a few variances in those vehicles. No commercial vehicles or cargo vans should be allowed.
Posts: 279 | From: GA | Registered: Nov 2003
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I think they are allowed, seing as to how I was told I can remove my rear two sets of seats in my van to build a wall behind the front seats :-)
but still not trueely for sure on it tho, so don't quote me on it
quote:Originally posted by Ghost man: a cargo van is just like any other van in front of the B-pillar...i thing they should be alowed in Max....
True dat,I was thinkin the same thing
-------------------- In Loving Memory, David Alfaro
2009 US.Top Cert.St C 158.7 2008 US.Top Cert.St C 158.4 2008 25-48NW NSPL World Champion 2007 U.S.Top Cert. Street A,B,C 2005 Db Drag St A World Champion 2004 Db Drag US.record 642 points 2003 Db Drag Points World Champion http://www.maxxsonics.com/
Back in 02 my girlfriend said I had to make a choice between her and DB Drag....I told that b-tch I've made harder decisions at the Coke machine. Posts: 4882 | From: Suitland,MD USA | Registered: Sep 2001
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It is still a street class, and it is power limited. However, if you allow for vehicles as large as cargo vans then they will dominate this class. The street max class was designed to allow for a wall, or a box to be slid forward onto folded seats, allow a podium, and many of the other variances from the normal street class that people have requested. Walling off cars and mini trucks will still not be able to compete with mini vans though. With a mini van you can build enclosures 3-5 times larger then any car or extended cab truck. That would allow for a person to take advantage of larger cone area and larger higher gain enclosures to offset the power restrictions of this class and absolutely dominate.
This class is meant to be a class that allows for variances from street, but not vehicles with an unfair advantage such as that. Cargo vans don't belong in any street class.
Posts: 279 | From: GA | Registered: Nov 2003
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both sides have merit, but 1: street should stay street, i am somewhat confused with the street max & ss nw classes, they are pretty much equals, but for different reasons.... Know what i mean? both should have some pretty high scores, Street max is limited by power(car is off) while SS nw is limited by not being able to have a wall. very good way to slowly transition from street to SS.
2: The biggest box doesn't always win... Take the CRX box for instance. My buddies cargo van (74 ford econoline)isn't much bigger than an Astro van, only difference is a few inches of width, and no back seats.
the main difference i see isn't really box size, but rather if removal of the seats in order to put a wall in for normal cars.... if the removal of seats is legal, then what makes it soo different from a cargo van in terms of box size?
How many 1-2, or 3-4 setups require 200 or more cubes of box? Unless somebody plans on using a few Eminance 18" PA drivers i just don't see anything more than about 50-80cubes being needed.
and many 18" subs have proven to not be as effective SPL wise as thier 15" counterpart... This isn't true of all subs, but mainly a reminder that a LOW FS is bad for SPL, and when comparing 18's to smaller subs (of the same line, same motor/same cone) the 18 is going to have a lower FS which will hurt it in the long run.
-------------------- - I don't have a problem with people, its dumb people. So 90% of those who breathe i have trouble with. - If beauty is only skin deep, then ugly goes all the way to the bone Posts: 300 | From: Spokane, WA | Registered: May 2003
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The suggestion for cargo vans has been made, as well as allowing cut throughs. Both of those take this class further away from street and more towards super street. It would become almost entirely a mini-truck cut through and cargo van class. This is supposed to be a street class where cars and trucks have a little more variance on the install in order to be competitive. This class is perfect as it is, and I say that from a retailer/former competitors point of view. I am simply waiting on the final rules to come out before sending in our money to be an official retailer. I can tell you with 100% certainty that if this class allows for either of those the 6 shows we plan on doing in Georgia this year won't be DB Drag events.
Posts: 279 | From: GA | Registered: Nov 2003
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PLEASE explain to me the difference between cargo vans and normal vans from the B pillar forward.........NOTHING. You allow walls in the class NO vehicle is any better than another period. Vans with bigger enclosures than trucks?????????? Bigger isn't better. Can you name me ONE just one SS class that's dominated by cargo vans.......The point about it being dominated by mini trux was brought up a LONG time ago.
Bottom line is they are new rules adapt modify improvise overcome. I don't like it that they don't have a Festiva class.......kinda pi$$ed about it but would that affect my season of competing......NO......and if you really give a crap about this sport it won't affect you either.
-------------------- T3 Audio H.O. Alternators Team Soundstream 06 NW Champion
Posts: 2463 | From: A gravel pit in Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Chris Dilbeck: I can tell you with 100% certainty that if this class allows for either of those the 6 shows we plan on doing in Georgia this year won't be DB Drag events.
quote:Originally posted by Chris Dilbeck: I can tell you with 100% certainty that if this class allows for either of those the 6 shows we plan on doing in Georgia this year won't be DB Drag events.
Way to keep the Dbdrag going strong.
I'm not a competitor, I'm a retailer who looked at these rule changes as a great thing, and I still like the street class changes. But if your going to allow vans or cargo vans in this class then I think that we are going in the wrong direction. As a retailer I have the right to decided whether I host DB Drag events or not, more importantly, it is only logical for me as a retailer to let all of you and the powers that be at DB Drag know what I expect from a competitive organization.
I am looking at DB Drag solely for its advantages to me as a retailer and how the competition classes compare with our local market. I don't believe that mini-vans, full sized vans, or conversion vans that are walled off behind the B-pillar belong in any street class.
I have never walled off a van for a customer in the last 17 years for any street competitor or even daily ground pounder, nor have I seen it done. Vans have always been for serious hard core competitors and/or manufacturer show vehicles. I have walled off trucks and many different cars over the years though, and that is specifically why I don't believe that ANY van belongs in this class. Let the mini-vans play in street with the current rules because those installs at least on some level reflect something which is done on the street to some extent. There is no benefit or gain to having them in this class. It is only people that currently have vans that are looking for a new place to play because the street class won't accomodate them that want into this class.
I'm not a competitor looking to support DB Drag or some shop I do business with. I'm looking at DB Drag as a retailer who will spend time, money, and effort supporting this organization. This will be my first year as a DB Drag retailer in Georgia, and I would have been one for some time now if I had felt that it was worth the investment.
With this class moving in the direction of allowing vans then I feel that we are going in the wrong direction again. The idea of cut throughs is another one where I feel that we are going in the wrong direction. So it becomes a very easy question to me. Either I'll agree with the direction of DB Drag and I will support DB Drag, or I won't agree and therefor will withdraw any potential future support.
Posts: 279 | From: GA | Registered: Nov 2003
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Ok i understand the point of the cargo van thing not being in street i just think maybe it could have been said differently. My opinion is who other than people who use them for buisness reasons drive cargo vans (no windows and seats in them from the factory) as everyday drivers, and with a stereo loud enough for competition? street should be for street vehicles not vehicles that you roll off a trailer. just my 2 cents
-------------------- TEAM XTREME DISTURBANCE PRESIDENT TEAM GATES DBS "finaly after 4 years a 1st place at sbn lighnting must have struck" Posts: 21 | From: deltona, FL | Registered: Jan 2004
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street should be for street vehicles not vehicles that you roll off a trailer.
Sorry what i meant was street should be for street vehicles not ones that are taken just to events, Burped a couple of times then go back in the shop or garage until the next one.
-------------------- TEAM XTREME DISTURBANCE PRESIDENT TEAM GATES DBS "finaly after 4 years a 1st place at sbn lighnting must have struck" Posts: 21 | From: deltona, FL | Registered: Jan 2004
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at the moment walls are permitted. so why would it make a diff what type of vehicle it is. you can get just as big of box in an suv as a cargo van. cargo vans were banned from street because they have no interior or windows, seats behind the b pilar. now in street max this isnt an issue.
quote:Originally posted by Chris Dilbeck: I have never walled off a van for a customer in the last 17 years for any street competitor or even daily ground pounder, nor have I seen it done.
If you've never even seen it done, why do you think its such a big problem, to the point that you would completely withdraw your support of DB drag? Sounds kinda crazy to me....
-------------------- Nate Scholten Team Sounds And Motion SS 1-2 3rd place 2004 finals -THE BUILD- ~Our Drinking Team Has A Stereo Problem~ Posts: 4253 | From: Rhinelander,WI | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Chris Dilbeck: Any cargo van can easily offer double if not tripple the enclosure volume of a full size truck or mini-truck if not more. Cars would have no chance.
How does a cargo Caravan have more interior room than a full size Ram passenger van that is not a commercial vehicle? Or even an Expedition, Excursion, etc? If you pull out support for dB Drag over something this dumb, you never had loyalty to begin with.
-------------------- Obviously you don't know who we think we are. SBAudio Posts: 6103 | From: Raleigh,NC | Registered: Mar 2000
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When I was really into DB Drags(1999) I competed with a Cargo Astro Van.This system had 24-15's,a few batteries and amps.The thing was that this WAS my daily driver!I drove it everywhere,including a nice drive to Louisville for Finals.It never saw a trailer.Oh and I was also 3rd in points that year.Alot of people can verify that I did drive it everywhere.Anyway the reason I got out of Db Drag was the amount of money you needed to spend to compete.Every year it was getting more and more.In 99 I competed against Art's Sound Chamber(Alan,Tim and Bobby back then.)And we were competitve against each other.Now you look at them and they are on top of the Db Drag world.I wonder how much money they spent and how many sponsors they had to get there.Nothing against that at all.But there was no way I could keep going and be competitive.Then they came out with the street class.That was great for the new guys.But what about me and others like me.It's not like we could move DOWN a class and compete in a class that was intended for the new guy.That wouldn't be fair either.Oh and I still had a basically stock Astro van,so I couldn't compete in that class unless I spent money on another car.So when I checked in a few days ago I see the new Street Max class.I'm excited because if I wanted to compete with other Db Draggers I could do so with out entering a "newbie" class.And I could run a wall in a van or truck and with the limit on batteries,subs, and amps it wouldn't cost me an arm and a leg to do so.It seems in the past few years Wayne has accommodated the "Newbie/cruising class",the SS and Extreme classes.But there were definately some like me who wanted to do this as a hobby that didn't want to spend the big $$$ or that didn't feel it was right to compete in the newbie class.Some fell throught the cracks and I feel the Street Max class as proposed is a way to get them (us) back into the game.And as stated it's all in the install.The biggest box doesn't always win.The guy with the most subs doesn't always win(as I can attest to .I really hope this class does pass and the dreaded Cargo van is allowed.I think it would be a very exciting class pitting the mini-trucks against those hatchbacks or the SUV against the van.I'm also not sure what advantage a Cargo van has vs. a stripped down passenger van other than security? Sorry if it seems like I'm rambling just waited along time to say this and I'm really looking forward to dusting of some "ancient" equipment!
-------------------- MEGAJAM B.A.S.S. Bad~Ass~Sound~Systems Real men do IT on the DASH! DB DRAG RACING,a sensation as hard to forget as it is to ignore Posts: 1124 | From: Topeka,KS,USA | Registered: May 1999
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I understand that there are exceptions some people do drive cargo vans around as daily drivers and oppologize to anyone that does because of the comment i made. i guess i was expressing the fact that a no window no seat van is not your typical "street" type of vehicle. hell single cab trucks with cuts are more common dailys with big systems than vans are
-------------------- TEAM XTREME DISTURBANCE PRESIDENT TEAM GATES DBS "finaly after 4 years a 1st place at sbn lighnting must have struck" Posts: 21 | From: deltona, FL | Registered: Jan 2004
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the project van that me & my friend are working on might actually become his daily driver for Insurance/cost reasons.... be alot cheaper to insure a 74ford van than a 92 subaru SVX
cool thing about that ford... uses the same engine as the 5.0mustangs... hehehehe We could have the fastest van in all of drags if we wanted
-------------------- - I don't have a problem with people, its dumb people. So 90% of those who breathe i have trouble with. - If beauty is only skin deep, then ugly goes all the way to the bone Posts: 300 | From: Spokane, WA | Registered: May 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Chris Dilbeck: I have never walled off a van for a customer in the last 17 years for any street competitor or even daily ground pounder, nor have I seen it done.
If you've never even seen it done, why do you think its such a big problem, to the point that you would completely withdraw your support of DB drag? Sounds kinda crazy to me....
You need to re-read what I wrote again as you took a small portion of what I said and used it completely out of context.
I have never walled off a van for a customer in the last 17 years for any street competitor or even daily ground pounder, nor have I seen it done. Vans have always been for serious hard core competitors and/or manufacturer show vehicles. I have walled off trucks and many different cars over the years though, and that is specifically why I don't believe that ANY van belongs in this class. Let the mini-vans play in street with the current rules because those installs at least on some level reflect something which is done on the street to some extent. There is no benefit or gain to having them in this class. It is only people that currently have vans that are looking for a new place to play because the street class won't accomodate them that want into this class.Posts: 279 | From: GA | Registered: Nov 2003
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IMO.....the fact that the large cargo vans would have more space in front of the B pillar would be a disadvantage.......they would need a larger box to put up the same numbers as a van/car with a smaller cabin.........furthermore i think this Wall NW idea could coverup alot of other gray areas.......
Street max NW - no cuts alowed, no cargo vans Street max Wall - cutthroughs & cargo vans alowed
-------------------- Team TAZM Team Gates Exotic Dreamz Car Club Team Cartunes
quote:Originally posted by Ghost man: IMO.....the fact that the large cargo vans would have more space in front of the B pillar would be a disadvantage.......they would need a larger box to put up the same numbers as a van/car with a smaller cabin.........furthermore i think this Wall NW idea could coverup alot of other gray areas.......
Street max NW - no cuts alowed, no cargo vans Street max Wall - cutthroughs & cargo vans alowed
By that rationalization SUV's could never be competitive in the street class. However, they have done rather well from what I have seen.
It just does not make sense to me to allow walled off vans into the class. The one or two examples of vans that are walled off with a ton of equipment as daily drivers are so rare as to be unheard of unless the one or two people that know of them step up and tell about it.
You guys that have made negative statements about my commitment to DB Drag are right. I have never been loyal, because I haven't been involved.
I was very excited about these rules until these items came up and I simply don't agree with the direction that they are going. I'm not going to buy expensive equipment, pay fees to join as a retailer, and go through the time and expense to host shows in a format that I don't like.
From a retailer point of view, DB Drags is expensive and it is a lot of effort. Those are cold hard facts. What you people don't understand is that I WANT TO HOST SHOWS, but the format has to be one that I agree with for me to go through the time, effort, and expense to do so.
I thought DB Drag was headed in the right direction, but it isn't. If we want to capture new people then the street and street max classes had better be aimed directly at REAL street systems so that we can draw people in from the street and then educate them on how to be more competitive in a high SPL format which is not the same as ground pounding. A guy in a little nissan extended cab who walls off a truck and has room for 2-4 amplifiers behind the B-Pillar won't be able to squeeze in half the air space as a van. That install in the mini truck is something that we do see running around on the streets. It's not as common as it once was, but they are out there. Throwing them in with a van which has almost unlimited space by comparison is just not logical. Not to mention that aside from one or two of the most extremely remote circumstances over the last 4 years that anyone can point out vans don't get walled off for daily driving. Vans always have been and always will be for the most hard core competitors.
It's the hard core competitors that are arguing this point and wanting into this class. Go take a pole of 50 or a 100 guys on the street who aren't competing now but have systems, the very guys that we want to recruit and ask them if they want to go into a class with walled off vans and see what their answer is. I can guarantee you that you'll get a resounding NO!
(with the exception of the few) Almost all DB Drag competitors care about is yourself and your own agendas. Not the retailer, potential competitor, or even the manufacturers themselves. You all need to take a step back and look at this from another perspective. What is good for the sport, not you and/or your friends who are already involved and want a new place to play. In the last 24 hours I have come almost full circle from being ready to jump in and support DB Drag full blast 100% this year, to being concerned about my involvedment, and now I'm on the fence waiting again.
I know a lot of retailers besides myself and have a very good relationship with many of them. I've talked with a lot of them about why they don't host shows with DB Drag and I feel pretty comfortable with my conclusions. Between the cost, and the classes being unreachable for their clientelle as they have been structured they just aren't interested.
This sport has to be marketed to retailers in order to grow it, they will in turn market it to their customers, and so on. But the first thing that you have to do is make it very attractive to the retailer. Since you can't make it free and include the equipment then you had better have a format that you can sell to them which will make the lightbulb come on in their head. "Hey, I've got Johnny, Mike, Robert, and Tom that would be real impressive in these street and street max classes, and I have another install to do that I could squeeze in here. With these guys we should be able to make a pretty going showing for ourself ."
If you can't present DB Drag in a manner that makes a retailer (like me) think through this exact same process then your not going to do well growing this sport. I have guys that are ready for street max now, but I'm not going to host shows where they are going to run head to head with seasoned DB Drag competitors in wallled off vans.
I can host shows and have fun with or without DB Drag. I had hoped to be a part of it. The sad part is that I WANT to be a part of it, but you can't even sell this format to me as being a great format, and I WANT TO DO THIS.
Guys in Georgia answer this for me. Since there is a distinct absence of shows in this area or at least very few. Which way would you rather see this, Take the vans out of the street max class and have another half dozen shows per year in the Canton/Woodstock area or leave them in and not have the additioanl shows. Do you want another retailer supporting DB DRag, or not? If you can sell me on this format then I can help you sell others on it. Posts: 279 | From: GA | Registered: Nov 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Chris Dilbeck: Guys in Georgia answer this for me. Since there is a distinct absence of shows in this area or at least very few. Which way would you rather see this, Take the vans out of the street max class and have another half dozen shows per year in the Canton/Woodstock area or leave them in and not have the additioanl shows. Do you want another retailer supporting DB DRag, or not? If you can sell me on this format then I can help you sell others on it.
You cannot ban mini-vans from street max. People actually have mini-vans that are daily drivers. If you don't want to support db drag because it allows someone to use their daily driver in a street class, I'm not sure that db drag would want your support.
-------------------- "A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history--with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila." - unknown
quote:NDMstang65 (9:54:55 PM): scottie gagged me once...
Posts: 8934 | From: Camdenton, Missouri, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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