posted
By now, most of you have made your feelings known regarding some of the proposals for amplifier limitations in the Street Division.
The Street Division incorporates several limitations that are not found in the other divisions of competition in dB Drag Racing. Specifically, there are limits to the size of woofers that may be used in each class as well as significant restrictions on the electrical system of the vehicle. There is a purpose behind these limitations.
First of all, restricting modifications to the electrical system of the vehicle severely limits the amount of power that is available for conversion into audio power for the speakers. Obviously, the more power your amplifier produces, the more input power it requires. Eventually, the sound system will be asking the amplifier to produce more power than is available to convert. This is an important concept as this limitation places an upper limit on the amount of power that an amplifier can produce. The question for me is where does this limitation start imposing itself. I am sure that most vehicles can power a 500 Watt amplifier fairly easily. But what happens when you upgrade your system to 1,000 Watts or 5,000 Watts??? One of the big topics of discussion relates to the hypothesis that eventually, someone will come out with a 50,000 Watt monoblock amp. Competitors would then be able to use 2 of them in the Street Class as defined by the 7th Draft of the 2003 Rules. If this were to take place, the competitor would have a rated output power of 100,000 Watts! Or would he??? I would submit that only the first 1 or 2 thousand Watts of rated power would be available for use. After that, the vehicle's electrical system simply would not be able to provide the required energy to power the system.
But let's suppose that there actually is a way to circumvent the laws of energy. (Energy may not be created or destroyed... only converted.) All of that power may still only be applied to a maximum of 2 woofers in the Street A Class. Once again, I would submit that the driver's themselves would reach full acoustic output when only a fraction of the power was applied. After all, the woofer has a finite amount of travel. Trying to drive the woofer beyond this point will only result in physical damage to the woofer or a meltdown of the woofer's voice coil.
What I am getting at is that there is a real, tangible limit that affects the usable amount of power in a Street Division vehicle. This limit is defined by the electrical system of the vehicle, the woofers being used, and the amplification in the system. While adding more power will generally improve a competitor's score, ultimately the competitor will experience a case of diminishing return. In other words, he will see smaller and smaller improvements as he continues to use larger and larger amplifiers until finally, increasing amplifier power will not result in ANY increase in SPL.
Thanks for reading.
[ 01-25-2003, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Harris ]
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posted
For the most part...with one batt and a stock electrical system a 2000wt or 3000wt amp is about the largest you can fully power with a typical stock alt.....IMO the amp limmitation you put in the 9th draft is about the best one....
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posted
Though it does limit the wattage, how much does it actually limit it? Keep in mind according to current rules (less the enduro rule) a 2 second burp is all that is needed to post a score. A good stock electrical system may be able to hold >5000w for that 2 second burp, even though it may leave the battery almost toally drained.
This is hardly a street setup. I know it would fall under the current rules, but I thought the whole point of street was having a system that you can actually use on the street. (Hell, that's why I got into DbDrag)
This makes it quite hard for low budget guys to do much in this class. Granted, there is ministreet, however there are a lot of people like me who don't particularly have a lot of money, but perhaps do feel that they are good enough under the current rules to actually make it to the worlds (I think I could probably swing 15th place at the worlds right now)
I know that you're making the ruling in order to try and level the playing field by allowing others to keep up with those with gigantic amps, but as for me, and probably a large part of the general masses who compete in street, it's still quite an investment to go out and get 2 amps, then take the time to get everything installed and balanced right.
quote:Originally posted by Nomex: Though it does limit the wattage, how much does it actually limit it? Keep in mind according to current rules (less the enduro rule) a 2 second burp is all that is needed to post a score. A good stock electrical system may be able to hold >5000w for that 2 second burp, even though it may leave the battery almost toally drained.
This is hardly a street setup. I know it would fall under the current rules, but I thought the whole point of street was having a system that you can actually use on the street. (Hell, that's why I got into DbDrag)
This makes it quite hard for low budget guys to do much in this class. Granted, there is ministreet, however there are a lot of people like me who don't particularly have a lot of money, but perhaps do feel that they are good enough under the current rules to actually make it to the worlds (I think I could probably swing 15th place at the worlds right now)
I know that you're making the ruling in order to try and level the playing field by allowing others to keep up with those with gigantic amps, but as for me, and probably a large part of the general masses who compete in street, it's still quite an investment to go out and get 2 amps, then take the time to get everything installed and balanced right.
Anyways, that's my .02
With the addition of a ruyle that states you can not change batts durring the compitition your power is limited.....if you drain the batt too much in the opening round you would kill it or not be able to recharged it completly for the next round.......if you run too large of an amp it would not last through the comp....
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posted
Let's do the math on your 5000 Watt scenario.
5000 Watts Amplifier Output Assume 80% Conversion Efficiency 5000/.80 = 6,250 Watts Required Assuming 12 volts for the electrical system (my eperience has shown that the electrical system will drop to or below the battery's terminal voltage almost immediately under heavy load conditions), we can calculate the required current for the amplifier... P=E*I 6250 = 12 * I I = 6250 / 12 I = 520 Amps Holy *@#$%! Did I do the math right???? I = 6250 Watts / 12 Volts = 520.8 Amps!!!!!!!! FIVE HUNDRED AND TWENTY AMPS!
Let's assume you use 00 guage (garden hose size) power cable, let's see what the voltage drop across the cable will be... 00 guage has a resistance of .000079 Ohms per foot. Let's assume 20 feet from the OEM battery location to the amp. Total R = 20 * .000079 Total R = .00158 Now, let's look at the voltage drop. Vdrop = I * Total R Vdrop = 520.8 * .00158 Vdrop = 0.82 Volts You will lose 0.82 Volts on the power cable alone! This doesn't even take into account the loss on the ground side of the system. Let's assume your loss due to ground resistance is 0.5 volts. Your total voltage drop is now 1.32 Volts. Your effective input voltage to the amplifier will be... Vin = Vbattery - Vdrop Vin = 12 - 1.32 Vin = 10.68 Volts!!! Even if the amp doesn't shut down, the amount of current required to deliver full rated power will be significantly more than the 520.8 Amps we calculated earlier.
Lets see what would be happening at the speakers. 5000 Watts delivered to 2 speakers. The power per driver would be 2500 Watts. Let's assume that each driver is a DVC and the total load impedance is 1 ohm per driver. (hypothetical). To deliver 2500 Watts rms to a 1 Ohm load, the amp would need an rms voltage of P = E^2/Z 2500 = E^2 / 1 2500 = E^2 E = SQR(2500) E = 50 Volts RMS Of course, if the load was 2 ohms, 100 Volts RMS would be required. This seems doable. Let's look at the current... P=E*I 2500=50*I I=2500/50 I=50 Amps!!! The voice coil in the woofer would be carrying 50 amps of current. Eacy "coil" in the DVC would see 25 amps of current. The voice coil would be required to dissipate heat that is equivalent to 42 each 60 watt light bulbs! This is something I would REALLY like to see (and smell)!
I hope this puts things in perspective.
-------------------- "Keep it Loud and Make me Proud!"
quote:Originally posted by Wayne Harris: The battery swap-out rule was already added to rev 10 thanks to comments from you and Shelduv. Good call. Rev 10 will be up later.
damn, wayne might not know alot about brands of equipment but when it comes down to Ohm's law... WOW WOW
In like one of the first threads in this part of the forum, I tried pointing this out...
I could see, some one who ha a D2 getting a gain off a 4KW swap, but, it (unless the person has a spare power source hidden) is not going to ammount to that big of a step up in wattage...
furthermore, I don't want to dirty up the lesson in electricty or power, but....the omment about not letting people recharge there battery...please explain how this could be done....if the car is running, the battery is charging...unless after the first round, everyone in street A&B would have to take there alterntor belts off.... Serpinteen belt system....good idea! but very unlogical...
posted
thumbs up to you wayne for finally evening the playing field for street class,i for one would have liked to have as much power at finals in 2002 as some of the other competiters did in 1-2 street class did,but i was limited to 1 amp like all of other competiters did, it just wasnt 4000-5000 watts like some of them had,i think the new multiple amp rule and the one fifteen inch speaker rule is a good thing because like you said the limitation to the charging system and the one battery rule will put alot of limitations on what people are going to get in their scores,i like all of the new rules and are just waiting for the dbdrag season to start around here,i think it is going to be an exciting season and very competive,thanks wayne for all of the time and effort you have put into the changing of the rules,lookin good, keep it up,
-------------------- RODNEY BUSCH,TEAM SHOCKER AUDIO USA TEAM GATES 98 99 ran whitlee two dudes comps,usac 01 RAN STREET 1-2 WHEN IT HAD A 600WATT LIMIT 4 dr trunk car, 01 DIDNT WANT TO GO, TO MANY VANS WITH AMPS UNDER THE HOOD.4dr trunk car 02 WORLD FINALIST STREET 1-2 CERT 148.3 1 AMP 4DR TRUNK CAR. 03 WORLD FINALIST STREET A, TEAM MEMPHIS FORCE, 04 DIDNT MAKE FINALS BY 2 POINTS 04 MECA WORLD FINALIST, 5TH S2,MEMPHIS FORCE, 151.9, 2ND RSPL 05 WORLD FINALS 7TH PLACE STREET B 152.1 (WE WON THE 3 WAY TIE, DID A 152.5) 06 world finalist, bad head unit, Posts: 1728 | From: OHIO AT 1 TIME THE LOUDEST STATE | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Thakns for the post on current draw wayne, every is all wrapped up around the axeles about having 2 amps in street A and 4 in street B, but as Wayne put it, the current draw of these big mofo amps will almost kill the stock battery/s. That's what i have been saying, you may have say 4 x us amps 2000x making 2000wrms ea, but they draw like 300amps each at full noise, 1200amps of current draw on 2 12v batteries and 2 farads of capacitance, can you say batteries go flat and you thro w them away after the first round.......
-------------------- some times way too much is just right.... Posts: 224 | From: australia | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
Ok, here is a scenerio for you............what if someone comes out in street class, with a newer Camero, or a Tahoe such as mine that was bought with a "Police package" that has a 200+ amp Alt?? Now you have the amps that it will require to push this vast amount of power. Just a thought...........
I think that I have said too much....................I must go now................the SPL Ninja's are upon me Need more power? UP YOURS!! with Excessive Amperage! Posts: 6116 | From: Northern California | Registered: Nov 1999
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quote:Originally posted by idbl_Fanatic: Ok, here is a scenerio for you............what if someone comes out in street class, with a newer Camero, or a Tahoe such as mine that was bought with a "Police package" that has a 200+ amp Alt?? Now you have the amps that it will require to push this vast amount of power. Just a thought...........
Police package? Wouldnt that be a "Commercial Vehicle"? Just curious.
Luin
-------------------- -Luin Haden AKA "Lou Dog" 2000 Street 1-2 World Finalist Posts: 3058 | From: Nixa, MO | Registered: May 2000
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posted
how is that a commercial vehicle?? he wont to the dealership and bought it for himself. its got 4 doors, a lift gate and fully functional seats. get it straight dude.
--------------------
2006 Street A - 152.7 Certified 2007 Street C - 154.8 Certified 2007 Street A - 154.4 Certified 2008 Street C - 156.3 Certified 2008 Street B - 156.6 Certified
TEAM FEAR OF BASS Posts: 3611 | From: Toronto, On, Canada | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
well "commercial vehicle" means any vehicle that was made for commercial purposes...which a police package would be...regardless of if it has seats etc...that doesn't matter...it can still be a commercial vehicle (ie cargovans aren't the only commoercial vehicles)
--------------------
2008 Spring Break Nationals Street B Champion 153.2dB 2008 dBDrag North American Finals 3rd Place Street A 155.0dB
A user of many brands of gear whose name cannot be said Posts: 3169 | From: Canada | Registered: Dec 2000
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Please can you consider the no silver battery rule? Also "baterry must be unmodified from store" "maximum of 16 plate battery " Battery posts must be OEM.,can not be silver or gold plated to increase current flow.,amount of acid can not be augmented by competitor. positive and negative cables can not be cooled via liquid nitrogen to increase current flow from battery/ alternator. Thank you. Russell.
-------------------- You are what you read. Un happy with your life? Change what you read. Change what you are. Posts: 206 | From: Nobodys damn business but mine | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by ShockingCanada: well "commercial vehicle" means any vehicle that was made for commercial purposes...which a police package would be...regardless of if it has seats etc...that doesn't matter...it can still be a commercial vehicle (ie cargovans aren't the only commoercial vehicles)
No it wouldn't be and isn't a commercial vehicle, it is just an upgraded electical system for towing. It's an option, just like you can go in and order a different color interior
I think that I have said too much....................I must go now................the SPL Ninja's are upon me Need more power? UP YOURS!! with Excessive Amperage! Posts: 6116 | From: Northern California | Registered: Nov 1999
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quote:Originally posted by ShockingCanada: well "commercial vehicle" means any vehicle that was made for commercial purposes...which a police package would be...regardless of if it has seats etc...that doesn't matter...it can still be a commercial vehicle (ie cargovans aren't the only commoercial vehicles)
No it wouldn't be and isn't a commercial vehicle, it is just an upgraded electical system for towing. It's an option, just like you can go in and order a different color interior
Very true....when i was looking to get a new intrepid....i was told i could get the 165amp "police package" alt as an option...right from the factory....
-------------------- Team TAZM Team Gates Exotic Dreamz Car Club Team Cartunes
posted
well i see there is some serious thought behind your theroies. but if a 500,000 watt mono block was made there would be dvcs or quads that can take it by then.
so yes your right after so much you can add amps all you want and not gain. but you never know anymore. year after year we keep getting surprises.
i suggest place in the rules now no amplifiers allowed in street capable of 4,500 watts or more EACH. so this gives slight play for the zapco 4k. but nothing bigger than those. if you dont put your foot down what will happen when earthquake comes out with the d6 or d8s????? it may happen or again it may not. but like i said we keep getting surprised.
posted
Like I said.,before.,there is no way to make a ten thousand watt RMS amp.,that fits inside a cocacola can. That is the only way to stop this insane growth in amplifier power.,place a weight limit.,bolster it with a maximum length by width by ht ruling.,bye.,bye.,monster amps. Check with some manufacturers.,tell them.,what is the maximum power that can be obtained from a case that is a maximum of 19 pounds.,case size is twelve inches long by ten inches wide by three inches ht. Tell them that you want a six or 8 thousand watt amp.,RMS. Check the look they give you when you tell them it has to fit inside this case.,listen to them all say "No way., Jose" Like I said .,before.,bye.,bye.,monster amps. But those that just got 4 KW Zapcos? Please consider this idea.,and post warning that by 2004.,bye.,bye.,monster amps. A second consideration.,is safety.,a huge amp has more mass and is more prone to come flying loose in an accident. Another .,simple form to test the power of a suspect amp.,is start the car.,turn on music and if the headlights go dim.,.well.,then it is not a 600 watt.,or less amp. Turn on the AC.,also.,if the system refuses to run.,then it is a 1000 watt or more amp. I have a 1999 chevy cavalier two door sedan.,we get headlight dimming with a Memphis 1000D. You guys on the forum say that a 4 KW Zapco is a street amp? Not in my car.,and not in many others. There is no way to drive with the headlights on and the system on.,at the same time.,therefore.,a 4 KW Zapco.,is NOT.,a street amp. Amps.,like that.,need to be banned. Thank you. Russell.
-------------------- You are what you read. Un happy with your life? Change what you read. Change what you are. Posts: 206 | From: Nobodys damn business but mine | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Street Dreams CC: well i see there is some serious thought behind your theroies. but if a 500,000 watt mono block was made there would be dvcs or quads that can take it by then.
so yes your right after so much you can add amps all you want and not gain. but you never know anymore. year after year we keep getting surprises.
i suggest place in the rules now no amplifiers allowed in street capable of 4,500 watts or more EACH. so this gives slight play for the zapco 4k. but nothing bigger than those. if you dont put your foot down what will happen when earthquake comes out with the d6 or d8s????? it may happen or again it may not. but like i said we keep getting surprised.
it would be easier to ban amps that are really two amps in one chassis (4kw) as opposed to a true single monster amp.
Posts: 988 | From: FLA | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Originally posted by russellburrows: I have a 1999 chevy cavalier two door sedan.,we get headlight dimming with a Memphis 1000D. You guys on the forum say that a 4 KW Zapco is a street amp? Not in my car.,and not in many others. There is no way to drive with the headlights on and the system on.,at the same time.,therefore.,a 4 KW Zapco.,is NOT.,a street amp. Amps.,like that.,need to be banned. Thank you. Russell.
What does your speed odometer go too? Is it over 65 or 75? Well then the arguement could be to outlaw the production of any vehicle that is capable of breaking the speed limit.
I own a fairly large amplifier. It does dim the lights only when I'm playing at high volumes. Amps such as the JBL Crown, Earchquake D2,3,4,6 and 8 or the 4KW wont dim the lights when volume is played at listening / daily driving volumes.
Just because lights dim doesn't mean its not a street amp. Maybe when someone's lights dim, they need to contact their local car audio retailer to have their electrical system upgraded or have a capasitor installed.
-------------------- See you in the lanes,
dBSteve Get Loud Productions LLC Posts: 8599 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
I have a single 9.0 running in both of my vehicles with daily - listen to em - stereos....
Both of them (Camaro and a Durango) DIM LIKE CRAZY.....
A 9.0 is quite easily a street amp, and you know what, I thought about going for a 4KW, but considering I'm out of the competition scene I may as well just throw in another 9.0... but on a stock electrical system, I question how well it will work....
Dimming lights does not equal not a street amplifier.
-------------------- Ryan Thorson Long since retired, but on my way to being Dr. Thor, so hopefully it's all worth it!
SS 9+ 7th Place 2000 World Finals 2000 Minnesota Points Champion ************* Posts: 1770 | From: Baton Rouge, LA | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Thor: I have a single 9.0 running in both of my vehicles with daily - listen to em - stereos....
Both of them (Camaro and a Durango) DIM LIKE CRAZY.....
A 9.0 is quite easily a street amp, and you know what, I thought about going for a 4KW, but considering I'm out of the competition scene I may as well just throw in another 9.0... but on a stock electrical system, I question how well it will work....
Dimming lights does not equal not a street amplifier.
Yes...even a DEI 1100d can and will dim your lights.....
-------------------- Team TAZM Team Gates Exotic Dreamz Car Club Team Cartunes
posted
HAHA Make all of us Steet guys burp with our headlights on That'll make it real interesting.
Posts: 494 | From: So Cal | Registered: Jul 2000
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