A few questions have raised recently that I feel need to be addressed.
Q. What is a trunk? A. A trunck is the seperate storage area in the rear of the vehicle. It is completely isolated from the passenger compartment of the vehicle. The storage area in a hatchback is NOT the trunck. An example of a vehicle with a trunck is a BMW740.
Q. Can I remove my rear seat from the vehicle in the Street Division? A. Only if the seat was intended to be removed as a NORMAL part of the vehicle's operation. Keep in mind that ALL seats are removable. Some are made to be removed to increase cargo space and some are removable for maintenance.
Examples: If you must remove bolts or screws in order to remove the seat, then the seat is NOT intended to be removed as a normal part of operation.
If the seat has latches (with levers), and the vehicle's owner's manual indicates that the seat may be removed, then the seat was DESIGNED to be removed as a normal part of vehicle operation.
If the seat is spring-spring loaded, and "clips" in to a slot in the sheet metal of the vehicle, then the seat is probably NOT designed to be removed unless the owner's manual says that it can be removed to increase cargo space.
I believe that the rule book is very clear with regards to these restrictions. In addition, this is how I will be enforcing the rules at the Euro Finals. Therefore, you should make your competitors aware that this is how things will be done.
quote:Originally posted by jarfunkz: there are no back seats i am aware of for crx's...
over here in Switzerland there are no CRX with out back seats, from old to new all have them in..
-------------------- Cactus Sounds CS Forum Life Begins After 5 World Championships. WR Holder SM 165.8db 5 x World Champ 4 x Euro Champ 4 X Swiss Champ 03 Loudest Smart In The World Posts: 7717 | From: Switzerland | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Originally posted by jarfunkz: there are no back seats i am aware of for crx's...
Some if not all of the european versions have a backseat. It's more like a shelf and a plastic back with seat-belts though.
-------------------- "A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history--with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila." - unknown
quote:NDMstang65 (9:54:55 PM): scottie gagged me once...
Posts: 8934 | From: Camdenton, Missouri, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I agree with Jimmy Anderson, street cars without back seats should be moved into Super Street (next year).
These cars are supposed to be stock, in my opinion they have back seats.
Another thing there is a lot of hearsay going on about this person says this & that. Well the bottom line is if its not in Black and white its not a ruling.
-------------------- dB Drags South Africa. Posts: 152 | From: Johannesburg - South Africa | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Kim: This is a Crx with backseat:
This is the car:
The CRX's in the USA DO NOT have the same interior as the picture shown. There is no rear seat in a crx here in the USA. No seat belts, no padding. Where the seat would go is a storage place that hinges up.
If there was a CRX here in the USA that was like the ones in Europe that came with a seat IT WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED to remove it.
At one show there could be a USA crx w/o back seat and next to it a Europe crx w/ back seat.
This is how Panda's should be treated in Europe. It is a judges responsibility to varify vehicles and be familiar with them.
-------------------- See you in the lanes,
dBSteve Get Loud Productions LLC Posts: 8600 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Originally posted by bikemike: Another thing there is a lot of hearsay going on about this person says this & that. Well the bottom line is if its not in Black and white its not a ruling.
There is no need for a ruling, it's already in black and white. The rules say if the car comes with a consumer removable backseat, it can be taken out. If they don't have a consumer removable backseat, they must stay in. I don't see how there is any confusion.
-------------------- "A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history--with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila." - unknown
quote:NDMstang65 (9:54:55 PM): scottie gagged me once...
Posts: 8934 | From: Camdenton, Missouri, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Richard.O: Okey what is this for kind of car and is there no sign of a backseat?? This is the winner in street 3-4 2002 in worldfinals...
That's the american Honda CRX. It has no backseat from the factory.
-------------------- "A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history--with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila." - unknown
quote:NDMstang65 (9:54:55 PM): scottie gagged me once...
Posts: 8934 | From: Camdenton, Missouri, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Broken Silence CC - Johnny:
quote:Originally posted by Richard.O: Okey what is this for kind of car and is there no sign of a backseat?? This is the winner in street 3-4 2002 in worldfinals...
That's the american Honda CRX. It has no backseat from the factory.
Actually if you look at the picture you see how the interior is an part of the back seat, and if a part of the backseat is still in the car i would say the car i BUILT/DESIGNED to have an back seat installed from factory, and if the cars are sold in the States without a back seat they are MODIFIED for that market. If judges in US approve modified cars for US comps the same modified car SHOULD be allowed all over the world also would OTHER models be able to be overlooked to pass this rule. If not NO one will take the Rules seriusly.
[ 09-24-2003, 01:21 AM: Message edited by: naughty Tee ]
-------------------- Tomas Nilsson International dB drag representative for the Swedish CarAudioAssosiation www.digital-designs.se Posts: 203 | From: Grillby Sweden Europe | Registered: Nov 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Broken Silence CC - Johnny:
quote:Originally posted by Richard.O: Okey what is this for kind of car and is there no sign of a backseat?? This is the winner in street 3-4 2002 in worldfinals...
That's the american Honda CRX. It has no backseat from the factory.
Actually if you look at the picture you see how the interior is an part of the back seat, and if a part of the backseat is still in the car i would say the car i BUILT/DESIGNED to have an back seat installed from factory, and if the cars are sold in the States without a back seat they are MODIFIED for that market. If judges in US approve modified cars for US comps the same modified car SHOULD be allowed all over the world also would OTHER models be able to be overlooked to pass this rule. If not NO one will take the Rules seriusly.
You make no sense. The car has no backseat in the US. In my opinion it was modified in your market by putting a backseat in it. But you know what? If you have a crx overseas, and it came with a backseat, you have to leave it in. Our cars didn't come with one, what do you want us to do? Import one from overseas?
-------------------- "A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history--with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila." - unknown
quote:NDMstang65 (9:54:55 PM): scottie gagged me once...
Posts: 8934 | From: Camdenton, Missouri, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I have no experience with CRX's. But I think they see the little thing in the side as part of the seat. Look from the pictures above where there is a seat, it kinda continues to the side and that side thing is there also in your US model. So it just can look like the seat could be part of the CRX interior originally everywhere, but for some markets it is taken out and sold as 2-seater.
I understand this "frustration" with those Hondas much better, as it seems to be very similar with the models having the backseats and models coming without it.
With Pandas it is not the same, the whole seat is TOTALLY different in the models with removable and models with non-removable.
Though, none of these things changes the rule anywhere, but it just feels bad and unfair for some.
Well, perhaps we can make some minor changes to Street division when the rules talk for 2004 begins. Americans might think different, but it looks like many people over here would like to separate the cars with backseats and cars without backseats in a way they don't compete against each other.
Posts: 575 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Jani U: Well, perhaps we can make some minor changes to Street division when the rules talk for 2004 begins. Americans might think different, but it looks like many people over here would like to separate the cars with backseats and cars without backseats in a way they don't compete against each other.
I think it would be a good idea, but I don't see it happening. It's not really practical for competition. If wayne makes a concession to separate cars with backseats and cars without. Next thing you know people will want a seperate class for "trunk" cars and vans and trucks.
-------------------- "A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history--with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila." - unknown
quote:NDMstang65 (9:54:55 PM): scottie gagged me once...
Posts: 8934 | From: Camdenton, Missouri, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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They had no backseat -- ever. The trim panels that curve inward (near the rearmost woofers) are there for a reason. To "separate" and protect the driver from the cargo area, there was a vertical and horizontal trim panel in there that made the CRX effectively have a "trunk" in the back. I would assume that n the European models, the front of this "trunk" is where the backseat is. In the American owners manual it describes how to remove those panels to gain more cargo space. The panels require no tools to remove and were designed to be removed by the consumer.
Here's a picture of those panels in place:
Here's the panel open to access the "trunk"
I personally think those panels should have to remain in place but they have been legal to remove for a very long time. Just trying to pass on some information.
-------------------- Team Shedluv Team Sweep Team Kicker Team JBL
Thats the same panels that is called BACKSEAT in Europe...
-------------------- Roger Edvinsson Swedish dBDragRacing Head Judge Judge since 2002 Posts: 85 | From: Stockholm Sweden | Registered: Nov 2000
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In euporean panels we have also safetybelts. So same car in europe is 2+2 and in USA it is 2-seater.
Can we (rest of the world) make usa-version of crx ?. Just remove the panel and officially change 2+2 to be a 2-seater...
Well we dont need to, we have Pandas
-jtl
-------------------- Jarkko Leppänen, FdBDRA Ry www.fdbdra.com, dB Drag in Finland Posts: 83 | From: Helsinki, Finland | Registered: Feb 2001
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quote:Originally posted by jtl: Here we can see european panels
and same here..
and "panel" up
In euporean panels we have also safetybelts. So same car in europe is 2+2 and in USA it is 2-seater.
Can we (rest of the world) make usa-version of crx ?. Just remove the panel and officially change 2+2 to be a 2-seater...
Well we dont need to, we have Pandas
-jtl
Nope, you have to leave the panels in.
-------------------- "A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history--with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila." - unknown
quote:NDMstang65 (9:54:55 PM): scottie gagged me once...
Posts: 8934 | From: Camdenton, Missouri, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
With Pandas these were pretty clear, but with CRX's it looks pretty difficult to make it anyway fair.
I hope the Street rules can be changed next year to fix these issues. Either way, have the backseats on and operational no matter what and/or let everyone remove their backseats and compete with 2-seaters.
Posts: 575 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2001
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On the behalf of European dBDragracing im glad that youre not a judge...
-------------------- Roger Edvinsson Swedish dBDragRacing Head Judge Judge since 2002 Posts: 85 | From: Stockholm Sweden | Registered: Nov 2000
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On the behalf of European dBDragracing im glad that youre not a judge...
Why? Because I know how to CORRECTLY interpret the rules?
-------------------- "A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history--with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila." - unknown
quote:NDMstang65 (9:54:55 PM): scottie gagged me once...
Posts: 8934 | From: Camdenton, Missouri, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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But I'd like to say few words how I could see this situation. But remember, like I have said in many posts, I do not have enough experience with both models of the CRX's.
Ok, important question, does it require any tools to remove the "panel" from the american CRX model ? Or can it be clipped out after folding it down ? Someone said it has been legal to remove those panels in US.
Well, now you can say you are lucky I am not judging in US
I could see that in the american CRX, the panel (which they call backseat in Europe) should not be removed and it is not meant to be removed for normal operation. Then, sure you can fold it down like any seats - that is normal operation to make more cargo space temporarily. But, just like the backseat the panel should fold back up to remain it's normal operation. That way, it would not make any difference if the panel is called panel or backseat, you could not use the folded down area for your box.
How about that...
If the panel is removable, it doesn't require any tools, it says in the american crx owners manual that you can clip the panel out for cargo space (not just fold it down), then there is no question. But if I have understood right, when the panel is a backseat in european models, it requires tools to be removed, and that's why it is not removable.
This CRX thing seems to be tricky, we should try to figure out a fair way to solve this and not start/continue finding who has ruled it wrong... if the bolted on backseats were allowed to be removed in europe, that would seem to be wrong ruling, but like I wrote above, we could also see removing the panels in US to be as wrong too.
Posts: 575 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I'm not trying to be nasty, but it sounded like to me that he doesn't like the way we read the rules over here.
Jani: on the crx, the american version those panels just pull out, tiny clips hold them in. It shows in the owner's manual how to remove them in order to gain more cargo space. As you can also see in the pics of the american crx, there are no seat-belts in the rear, another reason it's not a seat.
About the un-bolting seats in my opinion, and in the opinion of some of the judges and other competitors i have talked to, this would be illegal. You stated earlier that there is an obvious difference in what the newer pandas, which come with the backseat that has been unbolted, in the way they look. So the pandas that are newer, cannot unbolt their backseat. But the older pandas with removable backseats can take them out.
-------------------- "A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history--with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila." - unknown
quote:NDMstang65 (9:54:55 PM): scottie gagged me once...
Posts: 8934 | From: Camdenton, Missouri, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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