posted
I had a diffrent post asking for a ruleing, it's seems that I came on a gray area. I am looking for ALL Certified judges to make (1) ONE ruleing. Since the US and Eurp go H2H I also think the Eurp aspect of this needs to be looked at(IF DIFFRENT THAN US) Since I can't go the EVERY show and see what people ARE doing.....and since it seem's that every person has a DIFFRENT take on the rules, we ALL need the SAME ruleing from ALL judges. This is the ONLY way to make it FAIR to ALL competiors. Wayne Harris will not make a ruleing, he has left it up to the JUDGES.
PER the rules it states: -----------------------------------------
6-9a Speaker walls are permitted but not required (with the exception of the Super Street 1-2 NW class - please see the special note below). 6-9b Podiums are acceptable. 6-9c Center consoles that displace less than 2 cubic feet of air space are acceptable. (Both commercially available and custom or homemade consoles are acceptable.) 6-9d There are no limits to the number of "stiffening" capacitors that may be used. 6-9e There are no limits to the number or type of batteries that may be used. 6-9f Battery boxes located underneath the vehicle are acceptable provided they are located behind the plane that is defined in rule 6-2. 6-9g The OEM alternator may be replaced or "beefed up". A maximum of 2 alternators may be installed in the vehicle. 6-9h Temporary structural reinforcements to the vehicle are prohibited during competition. This includes attaching straps, suction cups, sand bags, etc. to the vehicle. However, pressing on the doors, windows, trunk and / or laying on the hood, roof, etc. is acceptable providing no other applicable rules are violated. 6-9i A Special Note on the Super Street 1-2 No Wall Class:
The rules for the Super Street 1-2 No Wall Class are identical to all of the other classes in the Super Street division with the following exceptions...
Speaker walls are prohibited. Modifications behind the B-Pillars may not extend above the plane that is used to determine compliance with the "wall test". All auto sound equipment (with the exception of source units, video displays, and signal processors) must be located below the plane that is used to determine compliance with the "wall test". Floor cut-throughs are not permitted. Battery boxes located underneath the vehicle are prohibited. -------------------------
The ONLY definition I can find that even seems relvient is : -------------------------- Vehicle Skin - The dBDRA defines the "skin" of the vehicle as the external shell (top, front, back, and sides) of the vehicle's OEM body that gives the vehicle its distinctive appearance. This is also the part of the vehicle that is normally painted. The underside or undercarriage of the vehicle is not considered to be a part of the OEM "skin". -------------------------------
Now for a RULEING :
(1) What does the term "Floor cut-throughs are not permitted." pertain to, and what the rule be trying to PREVENT. Why is it worder this way.
(2) What CAN and CAN NOT be cut below the window line,behind the B-pillar. Wheel well's ? Gas filler necks ? ......if the area removed were to be welded shut.
(3) Can the B-pillar be cut in ANY way that WOULDN'T affect a string test.....to leave the front part of the door jamb as STOCK. This would be refering to the area BELOW the window line.
(4) What is "legal" to repair the "skin" of the vehicle as the external shell. Be it from RUST, or a Collision. What about floor pan's that have rusted out ?
If ALL Judges would please respond, and hopefuly this can be resolved, as I wouldn't want to be legal for 1 judge and not a diffrent.
Posts: 1919 | From: Allegan Michigan | Registered: Jan 2007
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(1) What does the term "Floor cut-throughs are not permitted." pertain to, and what the rule be trying to PREVENT. Why is it worder this way.
(2) What CAN and CAN NOT be cut below the window line,behind the B-pillar. Wheel well's ? Gas filler necks ? ......if the area removed were to be welded shut.
(3) Can the B-pillar be cut in ANY way that WOULDN'T affect a string test.....to leave the front part of the door jamb as STOCK. This would be refering to the area BELOW the window line.
(4) What is "legal" to repair the "skin" of the vehicle as the external shell. Be it from RUST, or a Collision. What about floor pan's that have rusted out ?
If ALL Judges would please respond, and hopefuly this can be resolved, as I wouldn't want to be legal for 1 judge and not a diffrent.
YOu wont know if a vehicle is legal or not untill you actually take it to a show to get varified.
1. YOu can't cut any of the floor to allow for battery boxes, larger box or extend you box below the floor. This is refered to as the "Josh/Riley" rule. The box/equipment must not be any lower than the OEM floor. Pretty simple rule if you ask me.
2. You can not cut anything on the OEM skin to allow for a larger enclosure. Please see the rule book regarding what the OEM skin is. You can cut everything else as long as no other rules are violated.
3. You can't modify the B pillar in an effort to effect the string test. Everything else should be fine as long as no other rules are violated.
4. Repairs on the OEM skin should be made how a certified collision speciallist would do them.
Also, you wont get too many certified judges to respond here, sorry. I'm not sure why others don't, but I have my guesses.
-------------------- See you in the lanes,
dBSteve Get Loud Productions LLC Posts: 8603 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2000
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I CAN cut on the b-pillar as long as it DOSN'T affect a string test AND in NW it is below the window line. NOW This would be to allow for a larger encloser.
I am also under standing that a "Wheel well" is not the floor, it is also NOT part of what the DBDRA refers to as the skin(That is painted). So cutting would be OK....as long as it is at the same height as the floor.
I hope I under stood this right and thank you for a straight ruleing on a few of the issue's. I under stand that I will still have to be certified, and just want to make sure that ALL judges will see EYE 2 EYE on the same question.
(1) What does the term "Floor cut-throughs are not permitted." pertain to, and what the rule be trying to PREVENT. Why is it worder this way.
(2) What CAN and CAN NOT be cut below the window line,behind the B-pillar. Wheel well's ? Gas filler necks ? ......if the area removed were to be welded shut.
(3) Can the B-pillar be cut in ANY way that WOULDN'T affect a string test.....to leave the front part of the door jamb as STOCK. This would be refering to the area BELOW the window line.
(4) What is "legal" to repair the "skin" of the vehicle as the external shell. Be it from RUST, or a Collision. What about floor pan's that have rusted out ?
If ALL Judges would please respond, and hopefuly this can be resolved, as I wouldn't want to be legal for 1 judge and not a diffrent.
YOu wont know if a vehicle is legal or not untill you actually take it to a show to get varified.
1. YOu can't cut any of the floor to allow for battery boxes, larger box or extend you box below the floor. This is refered to as the "Josh/Riley" rule. The box/equipment must not be any lower than the OEM floor. Pretty simple rule if you ask me.
2. You can not cut anything on the OEM skin to allow for a larger enclosure. Please see the rule book regarding what the OEM skin is. You can cut everything else as long as no other rules are violated.
3. You can't modify the B pillar in an effort to effect the string test. Everything else should be fine as long as no other rules are violated.
4. Repairs on the OEM skin should be made how a certified collision speciallist would do them.
x2
-------------------- 09 World Finals Judge - Tulsa 08 World Finals Judge - Laughlin 07 World Finals Judge - San Mateo Team Treo www.myspace.com/boominaudio Posts: 3638 | From: Shows from 909 to 208 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
The reason judges don't always respond is proven by your above statement.
Steve has given you an answer, and told you that it needs to be looked at in person, but you don't like that answer so you ask again for someones elses response that might better suit your situation.
Get over it
Cheers Angelo
-------------------- Angelo Di Donato Australian Representative Posts: 277 | From: Bendigo Australia | Registered: Apr 2002
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Internal cuts that do not cut to atmosphere are fine.
-------------------- Ben ----- www.EastCoastChoons.co.uk UK SS 1-2 NW Record Holder Team UK - Team ECC Posts: 3011 | From: Deepest Darkest Norfolk | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by PeteS: So just to RECAP:
I am also under standing that a "Wheel well" is not the floor, it is also NOT part of what the DBDRA refers to as the skin(That is painted). So cutting would be OK....as long as it is at the same height as the floor.
I say the wheel well is part of the floor.
-------------------- David "Quadzilla" McLean Posts: 3371 | From: Jacksonville, FL USA | Registered: Sep 1999
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quote:Originally posted by slammer: The reason judges don't always respond is proven by your above statement.
Steve has given you an answer, and told you that it needs to be looked at in person, but you don't like that answer so you ask again for someones elses response that might better suit your situation.
Get over it
Cheers Angelo
So that if I go to 2 diffrent show with diffrent judges that BOTH have the same idea of this rule.
Not like 2 diffrent judges have ever had 2 diffrent ideas of what is ok.
posted
Mikko, other classes that allow cuts the wheel wells are not defined and are not a problem.
In NW you cannot cut to make the interior volume larger, this volume is defined by the outer most layer of the car, be it floor, side or roof.
Cuts that enlarge the interior space are illegal.
-------------------- Ben ----- www.EastCoastChoons.co.uk UK SS 1-2 NW Record Holder Team UK - Team ECC Posts: 3011 | From: Deepest Darkest Norfolk | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
It would be great if that text is writed down to rule book also. Currently it is not so clear what you can cut and what not. At least i was thinking before this topic that cutting wheel wels and everything else(not floor of course) has been allowed but now i see i was wrong.
Is it imposible idea that you judges take care that those things will be writed to rule book 2008 ?
-------------------- -Life begins after 175 db- 4.1 dB's over the goal Posts: 845 | From: Finland | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
^^^^^^ Sounds like a good idea, this does seem to be a large gray area. Some simple Black and white rules in the book could realy clear this whole thing up.
posted
It is simple and black and white. I's been explained o 3 different occasions. 2 by Ben one by myself. If you cut it and you can see daylight it is illegal. That is what defines "skin" if you cut and see daylight it is skin. The wheel wells in Caravans for sure ARE skin. ANY mods are grey areas and should be considered an attempt to circumvent the rules.
Another thing you have to realize is that judges are NOT the only ones you have to worry about. Jst cause you pull one over on the judges does NOT mean you're free and clear. 9/10 times COMPETITORS are the ones catching illegal things....NOT the judges.
Don't believe me look at the history off the class you are referring to. There has been DQs in recent years and of those I don't believe even ONE was caught by the judges. They were ruled DQs after beeing passed by judges then the vehicles were re-evaluated after competitor's parties complained.
-------------------- T3 Audio H.O. Alternators Team Soundstream 06 NW Champion
Posts: 2463 | From: A gravel pit in Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Als right, the people that pick up on the things the most are the people you are competing against.
If you are doing something wrong, they will pick up on it and they will lodge a valid complaint.
-------------------- Ben ----- www.EastCoastChoons.co.uk UK SS 1-2 NW Record Holder Team UK - Team ECC Posts: 3011 | From: Deepest Darkest Norfolk | Registered: Aug 2002
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