quote:Originally posted by H-O-Alts-Rick: LMAO now corvettes are trucks. As crazy as it may sound (saying a Corvette is a truck) I agree it is a more logical way to look at it then saying it has a hatchback. The problem is that basically I have been told it's a hatchback because (insert whatever reason of the week here). Well guess what ....it's not. You might as well tell me it's pink with poka-dots. It's just insulting to anyone's intelligence to say that any car without a hatch in the back is a hatchback car. By the definition given at the top of this thread all early corvettes are neither a hatchback or a trunk car or both a hatchback and a trunk car depening on which parts you want to use or if you apply the whole thing. All I am really looking for here is the rules to include cars like this without insulting my intelligence in the process by trying to find a way to call my car something it's not. I would like the rules to include cars that are neither hatchbacks or trunks and help level the playing field for more types of cars.
The other orgs rules are written in a way that do not care what the car is and they have many more types of cars competing with a bigger variety of equipment. This is good for getting new competitors since you don't need to buy a car to be competitive.
I also have noticed that the install rules for the bigger divisions mirror each other in dB drag and Usaci, they even use the same drawings to illustrate what can be done. I assume this is so that people can run both orgs without major changes. This too is good for the sport by increasing turnouts for both orgs at shows by allowing the same install to be legal at either. So why are the entry level classes so different.
For those not familiar with what is different I will list the major things and my opinion of the result.
1. Batteries dB Drag allows 1 in ST A + ST B an 2 in c This has been done to limit power to amps thus keep amp size down but instead has lead to the use of $1200 batteries. It also leads to more blown amps from low voltage.
Batteries in Usaci Pro Stock are unlimited but must be properly installed. This allows the use of cheaper batteries to be used.
2. Car off in dB drag. Once again $1200 batteries, and damaged amps from low voltage.
Car running in Usaci Cheap batteries and less of them. This also is more realistic for a street system.
3. 12volt only batteries in dB drag This is done because supposedly nobody runs 16v in a street car.....I get at least a call a week from a non competitor setting up a 16v set up though.
16v batteries in Usaci It allows smaller/cheaper amps to be used but still produce good power.
4. box height in dB drag is based on front door window line This has given a few cars a huge advantage over others. The box height needs limited somehow but what do the front doors have to do with it?
Box height is limited by rear windows in Usaci This is done with safety in mind. It's so that no rear view is blocked. It also makes many more cars able to compete reasonably with CRX's. It is much easier to test also. Just use a laser light through the windows if you don't hit the install then your legal.
It seems many of the street rules in dB drag are in place to keep cost down by limiting power without using amp ratings. What has happened is that it actually cost more. In reality the only real power limit that is working is amount of power a voice coil will handle, you just need to be willing to spend a ton of money for the right amps an batteries. The classes already limit the number of subs/voice coils so that's the only power limit that is working.
Usaci I am sure is not perfect but the rules do seem to help keep cost own and allow many types of cars to compete with a wider variety of equipment on a more level playing field. As much as I know everyone is against changing the rules at all, sometimes you need to admit what you thought was perfect needs some changes. I am sure I will get flamed for this by the CRX crowd but I feel strongly about dB drag limiting their growth potential to only those willing to make a huge investment just to get started in this sport.
If you don't like dB-drag, stop wining and go to another organisation
-------------------- Team DD Belgium - Dieter 2004: 153.2dB @ dB-Drag Street A certified 2005: 156,5dB @ dB-Drag Street A certified / 159.1dB @ IDBL Stock 1 worldrecord 2006:157.5 dB @ dB-Drag Street A certified 2007: 158.2 dB Worldrecord Street A / 158.3 dB @ dB-Drag Street A certified 2008: Benelux dB-drag judge Posts: 796 | From: Belgium | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by The WooferWagon: By the way rick I agree with the others you need to stay below the front window line.
The fact that you agree with the judges only proves the judges have made a huge mistake! LOL
Just proves I understan the rules. And proves I should of listen to my HO a few years ago and became a judge and started to do shows since i dont compt. but go to almost all the shows everyone else does.
quote:Originally posted by H-O-Alts-Rick: Why is that only people with CRX's and Panda's don't see any problems with the current rules?
I dont have a problem with the rules, and you can ask anyone and they will tell you, I dont have a crx or a panda, or any car for that matter...
-------------------- "A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history--with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila." - unknown
quote:NDMstang65 (9:54:55 PM): scottie gagged me once...
Posts: 8931 | From: Camdenton, Missouri, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I don't really have a dog in this hunt, but I would like to know something anyways.
If the vehicle in question is classified as a hatchback type vehicle; the enclosure would have to adhere to the "string test", but could be placed up to the B pillar.
If the vehicle in question is classified as a trunk type vehicle; the enclosure does not have to adhere to the "string test", but could not be placed closer than the front edge of the rear deck.
quote:Originally posted by Sid Grice: I don't really have a dog in this hunt, but I would like to know something anyways.
If the vehicle in question is classified as a hatchback type vehicle; the enclosure would have to adhere to the "string test", but could be placed up to the B pillar.
If the vehicle in question is classified as a trunk type vehicle; the enclosure does not have to adhere to the "string test", but could not be placed closer than the front edge of the rear deck.
Am I correct?
To my knowledge that is correct.
Rick-
If you think the rear window line makes CRX's less popular in USACi, then you should attend USACi finals. You would be hard pressed to find a class that wasn't won by a CRX or minitruck in the past few years. Also, to my knowledge, there have been a handful of vehicles that wasn't a CRX, minitruck, or SUV place top 3 since 2003.
Also, on the whole trunk/hatchback thing, we are defining the style of the install, and what rules it has to obey, not that the car is a hatchback (even though it has none), but the install area resembles a hatchback car. If the glass opened up (ala newer Vettes) then there wouldn't even be this discussion.
Secondly, you remarks regarding batteries and expense are correct, however, last time I looked, don't you work for a battery manufacturer? Wouldn't it be advantageous for that manufacturer to make these $1200 batteries that cost less than $600 to produce? There is now a battery limit in some of the classes in USACi, but that won't affect you as you're in Pro Stock. I can't wait to see the discussion when you find out that you're going against minitrucks with a bed 1/2 full of amps and 16V batteries. Picture No Wall without a cutthrough.
Good luck in wherever you compete Rick, but realize that to be nationally competitive, people will buy whatever car fits the rules best to work. Just like you don't see many professional drag racers running their daily driver.
-------------------- Team Shedluv Team Sweep Team Kicker Team JBL
posted
So what would a 2003 mitsubishi eclipse spider convertible count as since i have no oem parcel shelf or a hatch just wondering?
Posts: 15 | From: Ashley Indiana | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by DBDRAG_GURL: So what would a 2003 mitsubishi eclipse spider convertible count as since i have no oem parcel shelf or a hatch just wondering?
LMAO By the rules I beleive you now have a hatchback although it may be a pickup truck. You don't have a trunk since you don't have a parcel shelf. I think but I but I am not sure it's still a convertible though.
posted
eclipse spyder is a trunk car, its pretty obvious...
-------------------- "A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history--with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila." - unknown
quote:NDMstang65 (9:54:55 PM): scottie gagged me once...
Posts: 8931 | From: Camdenton, Missouri, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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I have been to Usaci finals infact Iasca and Meca too, just not in the last 2 years. One of the things that impressed me then was the variety of cars compaired to dB Drag. Btw you were there with a Porsche a few years ago,I remember.
I beleive some cars still have an avantage but it's not as big. It's not just the avantage that dB rag rules give CRX's, it's also the idea that if the window line was the same cars could compete in both orgs without major rebuilding. The ability for competitors to do this is evidently important in bigger classes, so why not in Street? It is much easier to test box height using the rear window height also. I my car I just used a laser throuh the back window and beleive that all cars could be tested the same way.
The way the rules now deal with "defining the style of the install" just has defined a " 2003 mitsubishi eclipse spider convertible " as a hatchback because it has no paarcel shelf and the passenger compartment is open to the cargo area. WOW I didn't see that one coming. I guess this rule doesn't just effect vettes. BTW the rule also decided that earlier vettes such as this one are hatchbacks. Notice that the back window goes straight up and down right behind the seats. The storage area is almost exactly the same as any trunk car with a fold down seat just in a 2 seater version. This car looks nothing like a hatchback but has no parcell shelf.
I am not sure who DBDRAG_GURL is but I think she is a vetran USACI competitor from MN. Even if it's not her lets say she is for example. She has bothered to sign into this forum and ask a rules question, so she is thinking about trying dB drag. She just found out her vehicle requires a major rebuild and will severly handycap her from what she is currently using. Do you think she will try dB Drag? I doubt it.
As for the us having batteries. Yes I have already came up with 2 designs. One very simular to the $1200 everyone is scared of and one more powerful but more expensive. Honestly, I would rather see the rule changed so that you don't need $1200+ for an entry level class but if not we will have to build them. I wouldn't pay that kind of money for a battery and would rather not sell them.
For the record I know Tuan has said he lost dB with his $1200 battery. Knowing what I do about this type of battery I am not supprised really but, in street C they could get really crazy fast. BTW The more costly of the designs I have thought of would correct the problem he has, so it would be great for street a and b. Thus a street A or B car would actually have more in batteries then the one everyone is scared of now.
What I really find funny is how soon you all forget. It was one of our batteries that was responsible for the 800CU IN rule. Back in the day we loaned a $500 battery to a team at finals. We had them for sale before the cut of ate but no-one had bought them. We decided that they needed to been proven and that was the best way. The team gained huge by changing only one battery and never had time to charge it fully. The rule used to be that the main battery had to fit in the factory try and in C the second couldn't be any bigger then the main. Ours fit many SUVs but was taller then normal. It fit Jeeps great! Anyway I was asked for dimentions of that battery. I assumed this was to make sure it would be the max allowed, after all that year we were extremely involved in promoting dB Drag in this area. I included the post in the dimentions without thinking twice. It came out to about 1030CU IN. Then the rule came out that there was a 1000CU IN max originally. After reading the rule closely I said that I was fine with it because ours was less then 1000CU IN as long as the post were not included. In a matter of days th rule was cut down to 800CU IN.
Yes, I was pissed that our battery was the banned but I understood why Wayne didn't want $500 batteries in entry level classes. Now we have $1200 batteries that are legal? What is really sad is I'll bet our $500 one would work better in A or B and may even in C. We no longer offer it BTW so don't take that as an atempt to sell them. After they were banned we sold them at a loss to USACI competitors to get rid of them.
I know most dB Draggers don't daily drive their car, 20 year old CRX's are not real reliable for the most part. I do beleive most people competing in cars other then CRX's do drive their car daily though.
quote:Originally posted by Broken Silence - Johnny: eclipse spyder is a trunk car, its pretty obvious...
How do you figure? Have you looked at one closely? We rented one at SBN a couple of years ago. The only thing that is obvious about this rule is that what seems obvious has nothing to do with it.
quote:Originally posted by dBSteve: The dBDRA defines a Trunk Vehicle that has a "permanent" or OEM parcel shelf ( non consumer removable aka normal operation )that divides the storage area from the passenger compartment.
The car has no parcel shelf, it can not be a trunk car.
quote:Originally posted by dBSteve: The dBDRA defines a Hatch Vehicle that has a cargo area that is open to the passenger compartment or has a 'consumer removable' panel which would allow access to this area.
With the top up the passenger area is open to the cargo area. This is because that is the area the top goes when its put down. It does have a consumer removable panel to keep stuff in the cargo area from damaging the top when it's down but we took ours out at SBN to make more room. As I remember it has nylon wing nuts holding it in place. Even with it in place it was still open on the bottom directly to the cargo area. The rental car place showed us how to remove it when we told them we needed a bigger car for luggage and I know we didn't need tools to do it.
It's a hatchback in everyway according to the rule.
Thanks for disagreeing with me though. I beleive anyone that really thinks about the rule and how that car is built will agree that even some of the "certified judges" don't fully understand what the rule is saying or how to apply it. I can just see it now, next year the big drama at finals will be someone that has ran a box all year being DQed because their 2003 mitsubishi eclipse spider convertible will be deamed a hatchback. All your doing is supporting my arguement that the rule has huge flaws,and even you are not judging it correctly.
quote:Originally posted by Sid Grice: I don't really have a dog in this hunt, but I would like to know something anyways.
If the vehicle in question is classified as a hatchback type vehicle; the enclosure would have to adhere to the "string test", but could be placed up to the B pillar.
If the vehicle in question is classified as a trunk type vehicle; the enclosure does not have to adhere to the "string test", but could not be placed closer than the front edge of the rear deck.
Am I correct?
To my knowledge that is correct.
I beleive that this rule still applies it is listed under Street rules as
6-7c All loudspeaker enclosures and/or baffle boards with the exception of those mounted in the kick-panels or doors shall be located behind the trailing edge of the REARMOST side door(s) on the vehicle.
and under general rules as
6-2 All loudspeaker enclosures, and / or baffle boards, with the exception of those mounted in the kick-panels or doors, shall be located behind an imaginary plane that stretches from the trailing edge of the driver’s door to the trailing edge of the passenger door. In this rulebook, the terms “B-Pillar” and “Doorjamb” are sometimes used when referring to this imaginary plane.
As I read both of them you can't build past the b-pillar no matter what. There is an exception dealing with trucks though. I am basing my thoughts on the what is written in the rules. As sometimes the case in dB Drag, that may not be the correct thing to do.
quote:Originally posted by Sid Grice: I don't really have a dog in this hunt, but I would like to know something anyways.
If the vehicle in question is classified as a hatchback type vehicle; the enclosure would have to adhere to the "string test", but could be placed up to the B pillar.
If the vehicle in question is classified as a trunk type vehicle; the enclosure does not have to adhere to the "string test", but could not be placed closer than the front edge of the rear deck.
Am I correct?
To my knowledge that is correct.
I beleive that this rule still applies it is listed under Street rules as
6-7c All loudspeaker enclosures and/or baffle boards with the exception of those mounted in the kick-panels or doors shall be located behind the trailing edge of the REARMOST side door(s) on the vehicle.
and under general rules as
6-2 All loudspeaker enclosures, and / or baffle boards, with the exception of those mounted in the kick-panels or doors, shall be located behind an imaginary plane that stretches from the trailing edge of the driver’s door to the trailing edge of the passenger door. In this rulebook, the terms “B-Pillar” and “Doorjamb” are sometimes used when referring to this imaginary plane.
As I read both of them you can't build past the b-pillar no matter what. There is an exception dealing with trucks though. I am basing my thoughts on the what is written in the rules. As sometimes the case in dB Drag, that may not be the correct thing to do.
He's talking about the box height string test, not the b-pillar one.
-------------------- Team Shedluv Team Sweep Team Kicker Team JBL
posted
I think we're missing something here. All of the discussion we've had, the vette's, the spyder, etc. is about vehicles that have not proven themselves to be loud.
The rules were made to give definitions to the cargo area of vehicles. If you build an enclosure in the cargo area and you're under the front window line, and all of your seats work, and all of your factory panels are in, then you're legal, I don't care what type of vehicle it is or how its classed.
It appears that you're trying to exploit a box height rule that was added to help out the trunk cars that are at an inherent disadvantage versus a hatchback vehicle.
In regards to the Vette with the vertical window being a "hatchback" vehicle, I believe that most SUV's have almost vertical windows and they are ruled a hatchback, so your logic does not work on that one.
I agree that the rule doesn't take into account every possible vehicle out there, but that's why we have judges, to use their own experience, knowledge, and logic to rule on the vehicle. If you look in the rules, it says "the decision of the head judge is final".
I went back and looked at the USACi finals results since 2004 for super stock and pro stock.
If you look at the top 3 places:
28 CRX's, 15 minitrucks, and 19 that I didn't know for sure. I would be willing to bet that most of those 19 were either a truck or CRX, its just that I don't know the competitor and don't know what they have for a vehicle. Even if ALL of those were some other type of vehicle, CRX and trucks still dominated them by more than 2 to 1.
I'm sorry to say this, but Rick, you're just not loud enough to have the rules made for you. Everyone would agree that if you built your vette under the window line then you'd be legal. I'm sure the extra 3-4 inches you'd get from being a "trunk" car is not going to drastically change your score. From what I can see, the loudest you've ever been was a 143.9. Shouldn't you work on gaining the 10 dB needed to be competitive in any class (either USACi or dB Drag) first, before you worry about 3-4" of box height?
For the drag racing comparison, this is like arguing about not letting a guy in his mom's caprice wagon with the paneling on the side not run in Pro Stock because he doesn't have a driveline hoop or full roll cage. Those items don't matter as he'll do an 18 second quarter to someone else running in the 6's.
Rick, if you really want to get loud, click the following link below:
quote:Originally posted by Sid Grice: I don't really have a dog in this hunt, but I would like to know something anyways.
If the vehicle in question is classified as a hatchback type vehicle; the enclosure would have to adhere to the "string test", but could be placed up to the B pillar.
If the vehicle in question is classified as a trunk type vehicle; the enclosure does not have to adhere to the "string test", but could not be placed closer than the front edge of the rear deck.
Am I correct?
To my knowledge that is correct.
I beleive that this rule still applies it is listed under Street rules as
6-7c All loudspeaker enclosures and/or baffle boards with the exception of those mounted in the kick-panels or doors shall be located behind the trailing edge of the REARMOST side door(s) on the vehicle.
and under general rules as
6-2 All loudspeaker enclosures, and / or baffle boards, with the exception of those mounted in the kick-panels or doors, shall be located behind an imaginary plane that stretches from the trailing edge of the driver’s door to the trailing edge of the passenger door. In this rulebook, the terms “B-Pillar” and “Doorjamb” are sometimes used when referring to this imaginary plane.
As I read both of them you can't build past the b-pillar no matter what. There is an exception dealing with trucks though. I am basing my thoughts on the what is written in the rules. As sometimes the case in dB Drag, that may not be the correct thing to do.
He's talking about the box height string test, not the b-pillar one.
Thank you Matt, but it doesn't matter what my intentions were, the mindset does not waver.
But, just to clarify my original intention;
If the vehicle is to be classified as a trunk vehicle, then the enclosure must reside behind the front edge of the rear deck. From my memeory, this space is less than 12".
If the vehicle is classified as a hatchback vehicle, then the enclosure can not be higher than the front windows (as described in the string test rule). Again, from faded memeory, this would only allow 12" of height for the enclosure.
Either way the vehicle is classified, the design of the vehicle limits the ability to fabricate a respectable sized speaker enclosure.
One of the great things about dB Drag racing, is that the competitor is allowed to use whatever vehicle they choose to for competition. If that competitor chooses to use a vehicle that has limited capabilities, then it should not be dB Drag racings responsibility to alter the rules to make that particular vehicle more competitive.
Also, I somewhat agree with Rick, in that the definitions (posted at the beginning of this thread) needs more work. While the judges have struggled to clarify the terms "trunk" and "hatchback", there could be improvements made.
posted
I didnt write the definitions. I dont need them, I'm smart enough to figure out what a trunk car is, and what a hatchback is. Obviously, rick is not.
-------------------- "A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history--with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila." - unknown
quote:NDMstang65 (9:54:55 PM): scottie gagged me once...
Posts: 8931 | From: Camdenton, Missouri, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Shedluv: I think we're missing something here. All of the discussion we've had, the vette's, the spyder, etc. is about vehicles that have not proven themselves to be loud.
So a car has to be loud before the rules apply?
quote:Originally posted by Shedluv:
It appears that you're trying to exploit a box height rule that was added to help out the trunk cars that are at an inherent disadvantage versus a hatchback vehicle.
No, I am trying to use a rule that was added to help trunk cars in a trunk car.
quote:Originally posted by Shedluv: In regards to the Vette with the vertical window being a "hatchback" vehicle, I believe that most SUV's have almost vertical windows and they are ruled a hatchback, so your logic does not work on that one.
I an not saying SUV's are not hatchbacks, I believe they are. It has nothing to do with the back window it has to do with the hatch in the back. What I was talking about was that many have said mine is a hatchback because of the way it looks. Yet the older ones look like trunk cars but by this rule are hatchbacks.
quote:Originally posted by Shedluv: I'm sorry to say this, but Rick, you're just not loud enough to have the rules made for you.
LMAO I guess I am loud enough to obviously have a rule specifically written against me though.
quote:Originally posted by Broken Silence - Johnny: I didnt write the definitions. I dont need them, I'm smart enough to figure out what a trunk car is, and what a hatchback is. Obviously, rick is not.
Nice to know that a "3x Certified DB Drag Racing Judge" beleives the rules don't matter and that what he thinks they should say is all that matters. This is why cars that have been legal all year get into trouble at finals.
If the vehicle is to be classified as a trunk vehicle, then the enclosure must reside behind the front edge of the rear deck.
I am not aware of that rule nor can I find it, the only one I am aware of that deals with anything close to that is that the seats must be fully functional and you can't build in front of the B-pillar.
If the vehicle is to be classified as a trunk vehicle, then the enclosure must reside behind the front edge of the rear deck.
I am not aware of that rule nor can I find it, the only one I am aware of that deals with anything close to that is that the seats must be fully functional and you can't build in front of the B-pillar.
If the rear deck is used to determine the vehicle as having a "trunk", then the foremost edge of that rear deck is where the trunk space stops and the passenger compartment begins. Anything in front of that edge would be considered part of the passenger compartment, and according to the rules... "Modifications to the passenger compartment are prohibited." Having a speaker enclosure inside the passenger compartment would qualify as being a modification.
quote:Originally posted by Broken Silence - Johnny: I didnt write the definitions. I dont need them, I'm smart enough to figure out what a trunk car is, and what a hatchback is. Obviously, rick is not.
Nice to know that a "3x Certified DB Drag Racing Judge" beleives the rules don't matter and that what he thinks they should say is all that matters. This is why cars that have been legal all year get into trouble at finals.
These definitions are not in the rulebook, therefore they are not official as far as I know. It is up to the event judge to interpret the rules that are not expressly written. This does cause some problems with legality. As a competitor, a good rule is, if you have to ask, its probably not gonna fly.
-------------------- "A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history--with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila." - unknown
quote:NDMstang65 (9:54:55 PM): scottie gagged me once...
Posts: 8931 | From: Camdenton, Missouri, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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If thats true my Monte was never legal and I'll bet there isn't a trunk car competing nationally that is. There is a slope to the back seat that comes forward as you go lower in every trunk car I have seen. All of the louder trunk guys build the box to the seat. In my Monte the front bottom of the box was about 4 inchs in front of the deck. That car even went to finals that way. The rule is that the seats must be capable of normal usage.
If thats true my Monte was never legal and I'll bet there isn't a trunk car competing nationally that is. There is a slope to the back seat that comes forward as you go lower in every trunk car I have seen. All of the louder trunk guys build the box to the seat. In my Monte the front bottom of the box was about 4 inchs in front of the deck. That car even went to finals that way. The rule is that the seats must be capable of normal usage.
Rick, I stated "If the rear deck is used to determine the vehicle as having a trunk". Your Monte Carlo, and probably many of the other vehicles you refer to, use the rear seat to determine the vehicle as being a trunk vehicle.
While "trunk" vehicle with rear seats are allowed to use all space behind the rear seat, including the angle of the seat back, a vehicle without rear seats does not have this option. With a vehicle that does not have rear seats, the rear deck could be used to determine the vehicle as having a trunk. In that case, the enclosure can not be placed forward of the formost edge of the rear deck.
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