posted
I'm just curious about something. For those who compete in IASCA and USACi or have even attended IASCA or USACi competitions, in your own car and if you mill around and look at the other cars that compete, I was wondering how you and others that compete position your driver's seat for tuning/judging? I mean how everything is set, like what kind of angle the back is at, how upright you are, how far front or back your seat is, how high or low it is, how you have your steering wheel set (very top or normal driving position) and any other minute details that you always make sure you have done before judging gets underway. I'll explain why later on why I need this info, but I need it. Thanks for your help on this one guys.
-------------------- MECA Sound Quality Tennessee State Champion (Stock Class 0-300) Sony C90/210, Avionixx 400.2/1200.2, Rainbow Pro Components, Adire Audio Brahma 12 Posts: 500 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: May 2001
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posted
There's no easy answer to those questions. The only real way is to test every position and see what works. I have seen (and will be using) seats that were so far back I couldn't touch the firewall (I'm 6'4" tall). I seen seats that were straight up and some that were laid back like in a denist chair. Steering wheels would depend on kickpanel useage (or I guess---never thought about this--doors if your tweeter were in the right place)and what type of steering wheel you have. If it has some big blocking item on the bottom, you might want to rotate it up, if it is a 3 spoke design--probably not a lot to gain by moving it (although I would try).
Sorry I couldn't give a 100% answer--but testing is truly important (you might also want to remove your review mirror--heard that work also).
posted
Just wondering about the dentist chair thing. I always drive with my seat all the way back, but I can lower it and when I got home after MECA Finals I lowered it all the way and while I can't drive like this, I put the gangsta lean, or Lay-Z-Boy lean, or like you said laid it back some like a dentist chair on the back of the seat and wow, my soundstage width and imaging became perfect. I'm talking pinpoint vocals and seperation of instruments. The height of the stage on the driver's side was still lacking but from front-center all the way to the right was above eye level, and the width was from a-pillar to a-pillar, maybe beyond a-pillar on the passenger's side. Just wondering if any IASCA people laid the seat back pretty good so you're kind of reclined like a Lay-Z-Boy. Thanks for the help Andy.
-------------------- MECA Sound Quality Tennessee State Champion (Stock Class 0-300) Sony C90/210, Avionixx 400.2/1200.2, Rainbow Pro Components, Adire Audio Brahma 12 Posts: 500 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: May 2001
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posted
I myself, when setting up a car, always have the seats as far back as possible, but leave the seatback in a normal driving position.
The way I look at it is that I drive my car in that position, and listen to it there, and if I set it up so that it's simple to reproduce, the judges should be able to judge appropriately.
Make sense?
-------------------- Love Always, Mr. Negative
Murphy's law's apply to everything I say! Posts: 3120 | From: nowhere | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Wait for Winslow to respond. He has his seats reclined a good amount. Not looking at the roof (like some vehicles I have seen) but it definetely has that OG feel to it .
I would try a few different positions and but expect that if your best position is the seat all the way reclined that a judge may so no. So have a back up position available.
If by gansta lean, you mean the true lean where you are leaning towards the center of the vehicle (or out the window), don't expect a judge to do that. Assume his back will be squarely against the back of the seat--no left or right lean.
posted
No, not that gansta lean. Just the seat has the gangsta lean. I kinda just recline it in with my shoulders square against the back, and with my head on the headrest my eyes are pointing right at where the headliner and windshield meet, so I'm looking up at the soundstage instead of down at it if I were upright. Hope that helps to clarify. I sit a bit upright for daily, and by dropping the back down 4 clicks it turns the car into a concert or so it seems. A few other MECA SQers do it so I thought I'd try it. Now I just have to find a new head unit and/or processor combo and step up front stage power and back off sub power I'll be done except for tuning.
-------------------- MECA Sound Quality Tennessee State Champion (Stock Class 0-300) Sony C90/210, Avionixx 400.2/1200.2, Rainbow Pro Components, Adire Audio Brahma 12 Posts: 500 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: May 2001
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You know what's messed up Andy? When I moved the seat backs forward 2 clicks to a more normal recline, I picked up 2-3" in height.
-------------------- Team Image Dynamics/Werewolf Team Second Skin Audio Sick Bastard Audio SQ Who feels it knows it Posts: 8018 | From: Charlotte,NC USA | Registered: May 1999
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posted
what is actualy being discussed are ways to manipulate human perceptiosn or alter perceptions for a moment at a time. realistically none of these aspects liek height, width etc.. are being changed. but perceptually they are changing b/c of a new orientation.
These are some of the oldest tricks in the book. many are making a comeback as competition gets more comeptitive.
best example of manipulating perceptions is Gary Bigg's Regal. his seat rails allow full recline (front to back sliding movement)so the front seats touch the backseat, improving listening position. also improve the overall "feel" of the vehicle, b/c you can now stretch out you feel more relaxed. But he has also made a custom bench seat, which is several inches inside the vehicle. to sit 2 adult passengers side by side. you almost need to have your arm around one another. But what this seating position did, was move both listening closer to the center of the vehicle- aka the "sweet spot". gary's regal is also free from any obstructions in the widshield. no rearview mirror. no stickers or decals. nothing. so its like looking out a giant bay window, so you get a sense of an open, wide spacious area.
its all about reading and knowing the rules, and how each category is actually scored.
stage width for example is scored by determining the boundries of the vehicles as a reference. the Apillar are used as the front lateral boundries of the vehicle. the ways to manipulate the perception is to fatten or widen the apillars. I know several vehicles you have done this. Or do the reverse and thin the pillars so perceptually there is more viewing room out the window. I have been in a few vehicles , who's far left image is aat or around my shoulder, but this is also where the "new" apillar ends, so by the rulebook. stage width extends pillar to pillar, even if realistically it does not. This also makes imaging much easier, b/c you now have a very confined space to place images. instead of trying to fit images on a large wide stage usually around 46" wide, you are now dealing with a stage maybe only 30-35" wide. so imaging scores improves, b/c all images are relcoated in the right place within the boundries of the stage.
stage height is another one to easily manipulate. apillar tweets are making a comebac. and whether they actually work to improve stage height or not, the fact that there is a visual reference in clear and plain site of a listener , will tyically result in imporved stage hieght scores. even if you arent looking at them while listeing (eyes closed) all judges, look around the vehicle when they get in to get a "feel" for the vehicle. if the apillars stick out from tweets, its something that cant be ignored. the logic goes something like this *also applies to dash mounted speakers " speakers are lcoated above the dash, therefore stage height has to be above the dash, and tweter is about eye level so the stage height should be there also" whether or not it is or sint, most people will be scored "safe" than try and dispute a low score for such a set up. a few great and ballsy judges score vehicles teh way they should be scored, whether they are liked or not.
sound stage relative to listening position is an easy one too, just move the seating position farther away. for example, Winslow and I both have extended seat rails. Winslow actually had his mounts, cut, moved back farther and rewelded I believe. I had custom seat brackets made, that allow my seats to move 6" farther back. Not only does this improve listening position and depth, but also improved pathlength. so instead of a 10" PLD from kick panel to seat. i am down to 3-4" PLD. which is a HUGE improvement in imaging and staging.
depth can be manipulated using time alignment. by delaying your midrange and highs, you can change the percieved stage depth by quite a few inches. but the trick is to find the right amount. b/c anything more than that creates a tunnel effect. And its pretty weird to listen to. Basically what happens is it will appear as if you are looking down a tunnel at a center image and teh right and left sides will narrow toward that center image. so not only will this hurt overall depth but also width scores.
another way you can change the perception is to remove rear view mirror if allowed and all stickers in front, and any and all devices within immediate view. This is why you shouldnt get HU with dancing lights or funky displays. This will allow a listening to look straight out with no boundries, creating a much more open and spacious perception.
darkening the interior also helps to "blacken" out the soundstage. This is why you see many vehicles with dark tint on all windows inclduing the windshield. the darker the vehicle. the easier it is for someone to relax and it helps to make everything else somehwta "disappear" b/c u have no distractions.it is also why many peopel are now covering all speakers from view, so they cannot be seen. the more you can see, the more it becomes a distractions.
these are just a few off the top of my head. I have been in vehicles that sat you up in almost a 90 degree angle. and I listened to a World Champions vehicle who's seats were so far laid back, that i had to lay down in the seat and to get out i had to roll out of the seat and outteh door onto the floor.the percieved stage height was above eye level from teh seating position, but from a "normal" seating position is wasnt well below dash level. BUt you are scord from the seating position.
Right now I am even experimenting with aromatherapy, to help judges relax. basically finding a scent that can help soothe and relax a judge, so they are more open and receptive to what they are about to hear.
I will note that USAC has a clause in their rulebook that if the judge deems the seating position as "unreasonable" that the head judge can be asked and if approved. then you must move the seating position. BUt they cannot move the seating position NOR move themselves from teh seating position provided.
SO always know the rules. and carry the rulebook with you and highlight any sections that may be of interest or "trouble" for you or a judge.
posted
Thank you for the informative post, I really appeciate it. Gonna have to bookmark this one for all the little tricks you mentioned, may have to use some of them soon.
-------------------- MECA Sound Quality Tennessee State Champion (Stock Class 0-300) Sony C90/210, Avionixx 400.2/1200.2, Rainbow Pro Components, Adire Audio Brahma 12 Posts: 500 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: May 2001
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posted
I forgot to add visual aids can improve imaging. for example a former world champion had a small silk screened and laminted display on his dash. It explained the basic operations of the head unit. But it was also conventintly located where the center image was.(or should be) at One finals. Sound Judges asked that it be removed and head judge upheld the decision b/c it a deemed a visual "hinderance"
I know other competitiors who tried the infamous "dampening dots" and placed them correspondingly to the 7 drum beat track along the windshield.
so visual reference can sometimes help as well and also sometimes hurt. so its all about experimentation.
-------------------- Image Dynamics,Team Genesis ICE 2005 IASCA World Champion Pro street 601+ 2003 IASCA World Finals 2nd 2004 SVR4 SLAP Champion 2002 USAC SBN CHAMPION Posts: 213 | From: maryland | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
Let's play "Name that competitor." Nah, that wouldn't be nice...but I know all of the examples, and I bet the guys who've been around know too.
There are more tricks, but we can't give up all of the secrets, now can we?
-------------------- Team Image Dynamics/Werewolf Team Second Skin Audio Sick Bastard Audio SQ Who feels it knows it Posts: 8018 | From: Charlotte,NC USA | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by mic10is: Right now I am even experimenting with aromatherapy, to help judges relax. basically finding a scent that can help soothe and relax a judge, so they are more open and receptive to what they are about to hear.
Let me know if Fiberglass resin has a positive effect. That's how my vehicle currently smells and will smell for a while.
quote:Originally posted by Matt Elmore: my car smells like Wendy's. is that soothing or not?
If it is a fresh smell of food, it will typically make someone hungry. which would then become a distraction. Instead of critically listening, you are half listening, half thinking about what foods youd like to eat and then you start thinking farther ahead, planning when you can eat.
If its an old stale, food smell, this would reallyw ork to your disadvantage IMO. noone finds the small of 3day old fries and rancid meat and contiments very appealing last i checked. and while you dont think that frosty stain on the center console is "that" noticable, judges will notice it
-------------------- Image Dynamics,Team Genesis ICE 2005 IASCA World Champion Pro street 601+ 2003 IASCA World Finals 2nd 2004 SVR4 SLAP Champion 2002 USAC SBN CHAMPION Posts: 213 | From: maryland | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
haha I'm actually very picky about food in my car. When I first got it I used to not care, drink cokes in there eat dinner driving down the road. Only took one coke spill to change that... no food in the car in a looong time.
People keep saying my car has this "smell" that they can't describe. My mom says the car has always had that smell even before I had it (it was my Dad's before I bought it from him). I've never noticed it, used to it I guess.
Is that "new car smell" crap worth buying? I will hopefully be replacing my carpet, hoodliner, and god willing my seats so I will have practically a fresh car! (vinyl doesn't hold smells does it?)
-------------------- 1994 Toyota Corolla DX Sedan
ugh someone install a stereo in my car Posts: 479 | From: Tuscaloosa AL | Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
yes vinyl has a smell. its kind of a mahaugany type smell. Some vinyls have a stronger scent than others. Then when you add contact glue/cement then you have that smell on top of the natural vinyl smell.
i dont mind either smell personally.
-------------------- Image Dynamics,Team Genesis ICE 2005 IASCA World Champion Pro street 601+ 2003 IASCA World Finals 2nd 2004 SVR4 SLAP Champion 2002 USAC SBN CHAMPION Posts: 213 | From: maryland | Registered: Sep 1999
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